English Kronekodow site
 

Sorry if this thread's a bit belated, I couldn't find any mention of this elsewhere on the forum. Feel free to delete if a thread's already been made.

You might've seen the new English Kronekodow site here:

http://www.kronekodow.com/html_e/

I suppose this is great in a way since it means Jihen and Ringo are paying more attention to Western fans and that, but look at this:

http://www.kronekodow.com/html_e/tsu..._contents.html

Harsh. Linnea's site has already temporarily closed up shop due to the nature of these rules:

http://www.shiinaringo.se

I'm not sure what to think right now. One question, are forums such as this subject to these rules? I hope not...

Old news is old.

Did .se close because of this directly or are you blowing smoke?

Shiina's old EMI page had an english site. It likely means zilch to "paying attention to western fans.

Nobody's posted about this yet though, not sure why.

Why would I be blowing smoke? I'm just going by what the site said. If it's no big deal then delete the thread.

The site details were brought up here and here and there was quite some talk about it after. Jonny spoke of the possibility of a .se closure here and finally announced the closure here. They're all recent posts, so please take a look around first before claiming nobody has posted the info and starting your own thread, or try searching.

Okay, sorry about that.

Chrissakes though, look at those rules. Are you even allowed to TALK about Ringo?

No you're not.

Thread closed.

You can talk about her as long as you do not attempt to imitate her voice.

While this may be 'old' news, I think this issue warrants its own thread, whether or not the opening post of this thread happens to be presented as "breaking news". ShiinaRingo.SE being taken down is no mere "Random Thread" affair. It's very serious business, that a lot of casual members are bound to overlook in Off-Topic.

I know Japan is very strict on protecting their celebrities, but "portrait rights" go a little further than I suspect most other countries would ever enforce. If EMF is ever 'legally' threatened, there are some steps we can take to cover our asses, without anywhere near crippling this site. Here's how it would play out:

1.) We strip down the current banner, and all Ringo/Jihen avatars. It's painful, but we can't segregate visitors into different camps of people who could or couldn't view those particular placements of images.

2.) All other images breaching copyright, remain on the site solely as Attachments.

3.) Before you can view the images, you must register for this site, and before you can register, you agree to a disclaimer exempting this site, its hosting company, and its staff, of any liability.

4.) Posted lyrics go into special 'spoiler' style quote boxes that can only be unveiled to registered members.

I don't think completely concealing all the subforums and user profiles from guests, is a great idea. You search the web for niche things like "Heart Bazaar", and our site here comes up as #2, right after Wikipedia. We'll lose that kind of established status if we make all threads and posts viewable to "Members Only". The only benefit to hiding everything, is that members could keep copyrighted Ringo/Jihen avatars.

This topic doesn't have to be exclusively about the fate of ShiinaRingo.SE or about the fate Electric Mole Forums - they're both major landmarks among English-speaking fans. I think EMF stands more of a 'chance' for survival than ShiinaRingo.SE solely because we don't have to be 100% viewable/open to guests, while a setup like ShiinaRingo.SE has no means to regulate that. Our "Images" board already mostly covers our own asses, with the majority of material there being in Attachment form, but that's only half the battle if we don't have a custom disclaimer with our user registrations.

A last resort would be to block most/all of Japan from being able to view this site. Everyone else would be able to carry on with business as usual, but our real members natively from Japan or visiting Japan from the west, would have to go through some funky mirror site with an additional pop-up login.

Sooner or later we may have to change something about EMF. And if we hardly know the specifics of our own legal rights, I don't entirely blame Jonny and Lineea for wanting to close down ShiinaRingo.SE before they could get legally warned, instead of after. It seems cowardly, but I'd be scared too. Not so much afraid of being personally sued/prosecuted, but fearful of the webhosting company taking the legal threats from Japan, more seriously than those threats actually are. Webhosting companies are totally chickenshit when it comes to copyright allegations - they'll treat a webmaster as guilty until proven innocent whenever there's an accusation, just like YouTube treats its uploaders. If a Japanese record label reports you, many webhosting companies won't care whether or not their/your country respects Japanese law - they just take your site down immediately, then ask the question later of "Can you prove you have the rights to this content?". And of course, you can't prove it, so now you're in the hole for the 1+ year of webhosting you've already paid for. Most webhosting companies don't know international law very well, and they don't care to know. It's cheaper for them to blow you off as a potential customer, than for them to maintain a larger legal department that can make more informed decisions.

Does anybody with a decent grasp of Japanese know if these rules are a translation of something that had already existed on the Japanese Kronekodow site? There are not a ton of Japanese Shiina fansites, right?

I had never heard of portrait rights, as distinct from copyrights, before.

Anyway, a very unwelcome, corporate development.

(My avatar is UA. I don't think her people will be coming after us anytime soon.)

i think having to close down sites becaus of these threats is harsh.. it's not like anyone is making a cent out of this.. we use her images and stuff in appreciation not for profit i think that they are far too over zealous with this.

It looks same content of Japanese page.
http://www.kronekodow.com/html/tsumesho/guide_contents.html

Portrait rights is direct translation of 肖像権.

Most of those rules are utter bollocks anyway, half of them are totally unenforceable in law.

"Unfortunately, even imitations of Sheena Ringo songs violate their copyrights."

No they fucking don't.

I think they violate, at least, the lyrics copyrights.
However, lyrics are something more important in Japan, afaik, especially when dealing with karaoke and such. I don't know if it is such a serious business in the west, since covers are such a normal thing...

EDIT
I found this in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songwriting

A peculiar example, also found in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeling_good

I think everything comes down to a thing called reproduction,
and aint that basically what we are doing, when someone out
there puts images of Shiina/TJ or music done by them for public.
Through their very own made dedicated fan-websites, blogs/forums?

Shall me quote this: from cric.

Pre-existing works such as texts, pictures, photos, etc. are quite often incorporated into web pages and blogs, and it means that the act of reproduction takes place by storing such works within the memory of the server. This act, of course, calls for the authorization of the author. Article 30 of the Copyright Law provides for an exception for reproduction for private use, and the reproduction of a preexisting work in a personal web page (not a web page of a company for profit-making purposes) may seem to be covered by this exception. However, storing a work in the server to make a web page is to reproduce the work not for personal use but for transmission to the public, and therefore, the above article does not apply to such a case.

Also, as the web page or the blog is transmitted to the public, the person who makes the web page or blog, making use of preexisting works should obtain the authorization of the relevant authors not only for reproduction but also for public transmission.
The above is the general principle, however, there are some points which need further clarifications in terms of other exception provisions.

Paragraph (2), Article 32 of the Copyright Law provides for, "It shall be permissible for the press or other periodicals to reproduce informatory, investigatory or statistical data, report and other works of similar character which have been prepared by organs of the State or local public entities or independent administrative organs for the purpose of public information and which have been made public under their authorship, provided that the reproduction thereof is not expressly prohibited." Therefore, preexisting works can be reproduced without authorization "for the press or other periodicals". However, a web page or a blog does not seem to correspond to "the press or other periodicals", and therefore, authorization seems to be necessary to reproduce such a work in a web page, according to the provision of the Law.

There could be an opinion that, as the informatory,
investigatory or statistical data, report and other works of similar character which have been prepared by organs of the State or local public entities or independent administrative organs are made for the purpose of public interests, such organs or entities will not complain of such a use. However, if someone takes this opinion he/she should make use of the work at his/her own risk.

Nothing will happen. What about all the gazillions of Gackt, Ayu, Hikki sites out there? (or I assume gazillions exist anyway) Frankly I dare em.

EVERYTHING on the internet is breaking some law. idle threats are idle.

You guys REALIZE that shits probly been there since day 1, just no one knew cuz it was in japanese. No one got sued in all these years exactly...

Yeah, I was gonna say. These rules have likely been on the site for a while and nobody has been threatened or anything of the sort. They probably just exist in case somebody does abuse them so that they have all angles covered. There's just no way they could enforce these rules on such a scale and as has been proven over years of fan sites and forums, they haven't been enforced at all and the fact that they've been translated is no indication that they have plans to do so any time soon.

I wouldn't take action over the rules unless I received a complaint from her management. Worst comes to worst you get an email saying "Please take down ______" but as I said, the likelihood of even a warning is minimal at best.

"Portrait rights" are there to protect one's image from reproduction and resale. But they are simply not enforceable under several scenarios:

1. Parody. I choose to make fun of Ringo by putting her face on Mika Nakashima's body. Have I violated two portrait copyrights? No, I have told a joke. Here in America, we are allowed to parody famous people under free speech laws.

2. Fair use. Using visual art, in limited capacity, to illustrate critical commentary. Look at any textbook on film. See all those frame grabs from DVDs? No studio gave permission for those, and yet they are used, and used legally, under fair use. I know this because I worked in publishing for 10 years. This, I believe, covers our asses COMPLETELY at EMF, because we comment on Ringo, we say what we want about Ringo, and that's not going to stop even if we can't have her little picture here and there.

3. Not-for-profit. This is a tricky area. Copyright law says you can't reproduce something even if it's not for profit. Why the YouTube lawsuit? Because YouTube makes profit from the content. But YouTube, not its users, is the defendent, even though the users did all the reproducing. This brings back Glath's point about paranoid webmasters looking to tear everything down that even hints at copyright infringement. This is what media producers want. They want everyone flocking to THEIR sites, THEIR content, THEIR revenue channels. Then they can control not only the content of the programming, but the content of the CRITICAL COMMENTARY.

We are fans, yes, but we are also critics. We comment. We think. We are independent-minded. We are not extensions of the Shiina Ringo publicity machine. Honestly, if EMI sent us a warning letter, I'd consider it a compliment to our community.

maybe she can pen a song about it all

♪~Don't steal My Face~♪

Micky can return and do a killer solo on it

At this point it would be just beyond hope..of micky getting
involved
it would be more likely Tokio who would perform the killer tune.
♪~Don't steal My Face~♪ Oh just imagine, that really happening, that would be the final blow :D

One of the first songs I ever wrote on guitar was called "Copyright My Face". Seriously!

:lol: well then if she goes for it then you can sue her!!!

Haha, I will. It was about a man that wanted to be unique so he copyrighted his own face and claimed that anybody that looks like him must be executed. Eventually due to how far laws and the legal system can be stretched he starts making constant claims due to the fact that faces by the strictest of definitions are all pretty similar. Eventually he ends up executing everybody and is the last man on Earth, attaining his dream of being truly unique.

True story.

that sounds like quite an epic song:lol: it needs at least a 47 second guitar solo otherwise it'll be an injustice

Unfortunately my guitar playing at the time was pretty awful. It still is :P

my guitar skills extend to Oasis's 'Pass Me Down The Wine' which i learned on tab rather than proper:(

the rules were there all the time and nothing happened until now...


now that it got translated everyone is scared..


thats kinda stupid

we were too stupid to read the Kanji:(
(Im not scared)

I kind of took the "If you take a picture of Hata on the street and post it, you are violating his portrait rights", as not exactly geared towards the majority of EMF members.

Wouldn't that be the day :lol:

Anyway, I only mentioned how stupidly the Q/A is written. You think it's a serious matter and should be treated as such but then they go and write stuff like "Regardless of how cool it is" which make me laugh x)
It's clearly something geared toward the japanese fans, since copyright laws, in that country, are really serious business.

I thought a did see Hata a few months ago outside of a museum in Tokyo. Turned out to be some other hip young stylish guy (had the same hair cut/color as Hata in the Spa and Treatment interview sections) with a SUPER HOT girlfriend. Anyway, as usual I had my point and click in my front pocket, but it didn't occur to me to get it out.

But now that they have put the idea in my head....

(Portrait rights! Portrait rights! Must violate portrait rights! Muuuwahahaha....)

Don't know why this is such a big topic...I think the rules have always been there and it's just a way for the label to take down sites that they think are harmful to the product. I'm sure that sites such as ours are in no way endagered.

I'm pretty sure Shiinaringo.se was taken down because of indifference/low traffic, am I wrong or did he actually receive some kind of cease and desist?

Have you actually went there?
They clearly explain the reasons there.

I think the big topic here is the English version of Kronekodow, which is AAWEsome, if they continue to release the news in english after the 10th Aniversary releases.

He doesn't really explain it. By reading between the lines you get a sense that he's just indifferent to the idea of continuing to maintain the site. I'm sure no sensible man would've been threatened by ridiculous rules like the ones posted on the Kronekodow site.

I feel like they're talking about me there. XD I doubt they are, but you know.

Anyway, my translations, and the ones made by other people, are copyright to them/me. Kronekodow has no jurisdiction over the translations. And I'm pretty sure romanizations also count as original work, i.e. "not the original lyrics." I guess if you posted the kanji lyrics they could have a problem, but I don't, sooo.

Well, if I made a song that sounded too much like Kabukichou no jou, they could still conceivably sue me even if it was technically original. So I can imagine translated lyrics are still copyrighted by the original IP owner. Not that I'm a copyright lawyer.

But like as been said, I highly doubt its anything more than legal mumbo-jumbo. And translated lyrics would be pretty low on their agenda anyway.

I'm not sure about the translations stuff...
I've read many times before that it's illegal to translate text that you don't have the rights for. Which covers fansubs, books, etc.
Again, it's not something I support or agree with (myself having translated many "illegal" things), but I like to be sure of these things.

Yeah. I mean, feel free to correct me, I made a lot of declarative statements I would LIKE to be true but am not sure on. I won't be offended if I turn out to be wrong, haha.

But yeah, until I get a cease and desist letter, I'm not taking anything down (it would pain me way too much! Besides, I've always felt that Japanese people got their panties in WAY too much of a twist over copyright violations. CLAMP's website used to say that none of their pictures could be posted anywhere on the web. Um, wishful thinking, guys... not gonna happen. I wish Japan would be realistic about this and not ridiculously by-the-book).

LOL!
Now *that's* funny, even more coming from CLAMP. Maybe they are unfamiliar with internet or unaware of their popularity :P

Anyways, I thinks it's better to wait for a C&D too. That way we could really be sure if they are looking for sites that "violate copyright laws" or if they put those Interview-Kind-Of-Rules just because.

I "temporarily" closed sr.se, to get some comments and think stuff through. Of course it would be possible to neglect it all and just keep on running, but what would happen if everyone conformed to the rules and laws of that page?

At first I was a bit angry (I admit I didn't find that page in Japanese) and thought "fine, they don't want fan sites", so I thought "they don't need fans then". At the same time, being a real fan, maybe you should "conform". Currently I'm not sure anymore which way to look at it.

If we'd reopen again, maybe it would be a toned down site with news stuff mostly... (but, the ENglish version of Kronekodow should be enough for that??) Or reopen the old one just as usual...

you should open it up if that's what you wanna do!! do what you like with your own site until they actually send you a cease & desist order (if ever)
your site was pretty nice it'd be a shame if this was the end for it.

It should go without saying, that everyone would like your site to return to the way it was. The news (whether you updated it frequently or not) was just the icing on the cake.

I wouldn't mind if Electric Mole ended up containing just as much (or more) info, but at the same time I wouldn't blame people for going to ShiinaRingo.SE to find that info, because of the layout. I don't see the English Kronekodow as a particularly valuable site for the English-speaking fanbase. It's not as nice of a site, and the translations are questionable. Perhaps I'd go there for news (if they kept the English section of it up-to-date), but that's about it.

SR.se was my first-choice reference for pics and lyrics, so I really hope it makes a comeback.

bring SR.se back T_T

Up!

Sveriges Radio has lever left tho (??)
:lol:

They're back since we requested their return! :o

omg
I must have checked out before
XD

I'd completely overlooked this thread and discussion all together.

Shame that SR.se is closed D:

I suppose I didn't mention that Ringo Catalogue is also closed as well. Well it's still up for viewing until it eventually gets deleted. Oddly enough it didn't have anything to do with the thingy posted on Kronekodow.

I saw that! It's a terrible shame because I really liked your site's design and how the information was centralized under a good easy-to-use design, but if you can't keep it updated, then I guess there's no use having it around anymore. :/ At least my OCD-ness will no longer be terrorized by the thought of my un-updated-with-new-edits translations left up there. XD XD

this portrait right thingie doesn't make any sense. If I'm in Japan and I take a picture of people walking down the street and then post it on the web, do they all have a right to sue me? Newspapers and tabloids post pictures of people in public spaces all all the time... and for profit.

In Sweden we have such a law (PUL). You can't publish information about someone else on the internet without asking first.

(Which leads onto another funny thing our damn politicans have made up. From January first 2009 we have a defence organisation (FRA) that will get the rights to scan all linebased information (email, phone, ICQ mess) passing the borders of Sweden)

If I had a Shiina fansite I would just make the main page look like it was never coming back, and password protect the rest of it for EMF's viewing pleasure.

Not legal, but I would totally do it.

Also, also, also:
Q: I added an original illustration to an image of Sheena Ringo, and it looks really cool, so I want to put it on my website. Since I'm the one who created it, this isn't a problem is it?
A: Even if you add your own illustration to an image, the fact remains that you are still partially using Sheena Ringo's image. This constitutes unauthorized use of her image, so please do not use it. Of course if your website is composed entirely of your own illustrations and you are not using any pictures or images of Sheena Ringo, that would not be a problem.

Q: I want to post a realistic sketch, not a photo.
A: If the sketch constitutes a portrait of Sheena Ringo, posting it would be considered unauthorized use of her portrait. The same holds true for a sketch-like illustration or a somewhat out-of-focus photo. Sketches that bear no resemblance to Sheena Ringo are fine, though these would not be considered sketches of Sheena Ringo per se. Thank you for your understanding.


WHAT IS THIS BULLSHIT? I can't draw Shiina Ringo fanart? What the ass monkeys is going on? o_O

Once again, I think everyone is fine and safe. To show how safe, I'm going to link a download for every song in Shiina's librabry in free mp3 format: http://www.mediashBANNED

I've been kind of MIA D: and now my head hurts from all this stuff going down.

"All your fan sites are belong to us!"

i can't help but think of waxringo's tattoos...

they'll have the skin off her back!! :lol:

*Run Wax* we'll throw copies of Variety at Shiina & the EMI Lawyers to slow them down!!!

Not Toshiba anymore, only EMI now =P

Fixed!!

Q: I want to post a realistic sketch, but am such a bad artist that my friends think it looks like some sort of futuristic space vehicle. I still named it "Portrait of Shiina Ringo".
A: If the sketch constitutes a portrait of Sheena Ringo, posting it would be considered unauthorized use of her portrait. The same holds true for a sketch-like illustration or a somewhat out-of-focus photo. Sketches that bear no resemblance to Sheena Ringo are fine, though these would not be considered sketches of Sheena Ringo per se. Thank you for your understanding.

This last page had me in stitches! I wonder tje exact same thing in regards to tattoos that were already tattooed on, and the mental image of you all throwing copies of Variety at music and lawyer types is just...awesome. The futuristic space vehicle comment is icing on the cake.

When I first read that page, I launched into crazy attack mode and put up the biggest typed up stick since that time Wal-Mart wanted to move to my town. I'm glad I came here though, because you've calmed my rage down, and shown me just how silly some of those rules are.

This is ludicrous.

Yeah so, I guess she will have to rip my tat's off too.

But hey..I'm pretty OK with SR herself ripping my skin off. I would fanboy-sqwee the whole damn time.

Then bleed to death.

maybe she's the one who'd mind all that the least, she's a part of a big label and we all know how music industry is. don't tell me she wouldn't be pleased by someone having a tattoo after her work :)

Shiina's always watching!! waiting for the big Lawsuit moment!!!

be prepared :ph43r::ph43r::ph43r::ph43r::ph43r:

lol..ninja ringo

HAHAHAHA. OMG I haven't laughed so hard in such a long time.

I think Toshiba is going to go after you next!