Speculations on the "real" style of shiina (long long read)

[frecklegirl]

Yeah. It just bothers me that subpar artists who would not have made it out of obscurity on their own (because they aren't good enough songwriters--Ukigumo) are being given songwriting powers on a Shiina Ringo album. If she wanted to form a band of top-notch performers AND songwriters in their own right, she shouldn't have let Uki in at all. He already has no stage presence. It's not much of a surprise his songs are lackluster too. I just wish she'd created a really amazing, dynamic band, like jrock bands like Malice Mizer and L'arc~en~ciel where every member is an amazing musician in their own right. Here, it just seems like some people don't quite measure up to Ringo.

[imkookoo]

I don't think the line is that black and white. I think her "real" style is a bit of both Jazz and Rock, with a leaning more toward Jazz at the moment.

Jazz and Rock both have roots in Blues.. you can see that with the type of chord progressions/rhythm that are in both genres. So it's not that far fetched that the styles are interchangeable with SR.

But anyway, one important thing to realize though is that preferences change with age and life events. When she debuted, she was what.. 18? 19? Now she's almost 30. She's now a mother, and she's probably gotten much more mature being a working woman facing the real world. Those forces tend to subdue the teenage angst within a person. Not just angst, but pretty much any emotion. As you get older, you become a lot more neutral about things, because that's the state of balance. Also, views become a lot more inward than outward. Rock, I feel, needs extreme outward emotions. Whereas Jazz -tends- to be more inward, subdued emotions.

Lastly, she's an artist. Artists usually get bored with things. If they released a certain style of music, it's been done. It's the equivalent of not wanting to wear the same clothes the next day. She's done rock, she's done avant garde music in her solo career. She's exploring different avenues of music -- orchestrated, pure jazz, jazz rock, etc.

So really, her "real" style is everything. It depends on what stage of her life you are talking about, and what frame of mind you are talking about.

[Ringo~Bingo]

the band really don't measure up.. as for getting older well that's fine but even if you wanna go in another creative direction it's really no excuse to forget to take the quality along for the ride aswell!!

[Tokyo Jihad]

And in the third phase she rose again...

...IT'S IN ''REVELATIONS,'' PEOPLE!

iPhase3!

[imkookoo]

Originally Posted by ringobingo

the band really don't measure up.. as for getting older well that's fine but even if you wanna go in another creative direction it's really no excuse to forget to take the quality along for the ride aswell!!

Quality is subjective though. I mean, I guess I agree even if it's opinion that Variety was not so great of a direction. But I still stand by my belief that the leader shouldn't be blamed for the actions of the subordinates, even though people are so inclined to do so.

[golem09]

Originally Posted by imkookoo

Quality is subjective though. I mean, I guess I agree even if it's opinion that Variety was not so great of a direction. But I still stand by my belief that the leader shouldn't be blamed for the actions of the subordinates, even though people are so inclined to do so.

If quality was completely subjective, I could write some shit and compare it to a Shiina Song. And because the possibility exist, that one person in the universe might like that shit, both would have quality then.

I don't think so. It's the other way around. Just because somebody likes something, it doesn't mean that it is good.
Quality isn't subjective, the opinion one has is. But most people feel the need to have a legitimation for liking something, just in case somebody takes note of it. And instead of admitting that what they like is shit they rather declare everything to be the same, so they don't have to feel inferior to someone elses opinion.

[Tokyo Jihad]

The leaders are the one's that allowed their subordinates to do their actions or hired them, so yes they're 100% accountable.

[TeslaGuy]

Originally Posted by golem09

Quality isn't subjective, the opinion one has is. But most people feel the need to have a legitimation for liking something, just in case somebody takes note of it. And instead of admitting that what they like is shit they rather declare everything to be the same, so they don't have to feel inferior to someone elses opinion.

Quality can be quite subjective. During his lifetime, everyone thought Van Gogh's work was shit.

I have a hard time following the rest of your paragraph. I have reasons for liking something, but they don't exist for the purpose of convincing others. I really don't care what other people think.

Your last sentence is just baffling.

[imkookoo]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Jihad

The leaders are the one's that allowed their subordinates to do their actions or hired them, so yes they're 100% accountable.

That's the simple way of thinking about it. The world is complex, it should be thought of as that way.

[D.K.Liu]

Golem ... I'll second TeslaGuy on 'quality' not being a purely objective property. You can measure quality 'objectively' only after you have decided/chosen a paradigm on which to base your judgement/analysis. Usually we think of quality in relation to 'fitness for purpose', a quality car or furniture is one that is reliable, durable etc, and we can come up with objective ways to measure/test these eg. frequency of failure, and how long they last.

For creative arts ... it becomes harder to define the 'purpose'. Maybe it's for people's enjoyment, maybe it's for the artist's own enjoyment, or somethings else. I'm not sure ... but it seems to depend on what people think about the work - which you agree is subjective.

Let's say a lot of people have similar feelings for certain artwork, perhaps we can analyze their opinions to construct a model or a paradigm for measuring 'quality'. Perhaps you can say it's more objective than a single person's opinion, but it is not a kind universal or people independent objectivity.

I'm not immune to thinking sometimes "I really don't like this music, how can other people like it?" but I think it is extremely arrogant to say that they should admit that their taste is 'inferior'.

I think we can all benefit in these discussion by reading a bit on the philosophy of aesthetics (I have yet to do so, but this wikipedia article seems interesting).

D.K.Liu