[SR] 2011.11.02 - Carnation (CD) [Single]

[Scribble R]

I agree that Tsugou ii Karada is obviously Shiina Ringo going for a specific type of song, but it's a noteworthy take on that kind of song. I *think* it combines the regular kind of 'I Want' song with the latin style of 'I Want to Be in America'. Also included is what sounds like TV theme music (although I wonder whether the TV theme-sound is accidental with SR/TJ), and on top of that a brief nightmarish rendition of classic Disney princess echo vocals. Also, the whole song has the charge of a circus music, but then it actually becomes circus music with the introduction of the 'ompah ompah' sound during the latter half of the song.

Ya, I know -- most of the ideas combines here aren't wildly disparate. It's SR using the showtune as a vehicle for her showtune ideas, lol. But it's at least a bit subversive as it's like her subconscious's take on that style of song. Kono Kagiri sounds a lot more paint-by-numbers to me.

Michael Buble just reminds me of what's become that X-Factor cliche of the contestant making an older style of music sound 'contemporary' because they infuse it with blandness and resembles Justin Timberlake a bit. SG is interesting sense because it's neither an attempt to 'modernise' 40/50s pop-jazz or do a retro homage to it. It's like she just weaves a thread between the pop music of yesterday and the pop of today

I don't think a Shiina Ringo with glitz and no underlying emotion is very appealing, nor do I really read her as doing it "to 11" to make a statement on it. If there's no personality or emotion, then what makes her stand out from the bevy of acts that don't hide the fact they're all show and no substance? Shiina's show or production is not even all that ear-catching at that.
Agree to disagree, maybe. If she is trying to make a subversive statement, its so subtle and transparent as to not even be there.

I didn't mean to fall into this pun, but, say, Stoicism 'lacks emotion', and yet people appreciate its inventiveness/creativity/the way it's a music-equivalent of a wink. It's an agree to disagree thing.

[Tokyo Jihad]

Stoicism exhibits great emotion though, and feels less "scripted" than her showtunes. The movements in Onna no ko wa dare demo and Tsugou no ii karada (not to keep picking on this one song) always feel so "this is the part were the music is supposed to swell and I sing big" and "insert flourish here." Stoicism is so rule-less whatever is conveyed feels honest and impromptu.

[TurtleFu]

Stoicism's great emotional power is in it's lack of direct emotional appeal. Listen to it for the first time and it just seems like a random sound collage. Understanding the context of the entire SS album (specifically the lyrics) makes the song more meaningful.
It's expressing the shallowness of emotions "I like" "I hate" etc. the song sounds stunted because the singer is emotionally stunted. Dig deeper, it's lack of immediate apparent depth is its strong point.

Let's be honest here though: SS sounds predictable at times. At least half of the songs on it are homages to 90's rock bands. Yokushitsu "This is Depeche Mode", Gips "This is Nirvana", Tsumi to Batsu even sounds like an Asai Kenichi tribute. That doesn't stop them from being great songs.

Onna no Ko is a swing song, and it doesn't do anything interesting but is still a nice swing song. I have to question the modern idea of contemporary Jazz/Big Band music, where everything must be FUSION and if it isn't it's boring and reductive. Tsugou, however, I like the merging of the Big Band aesthetic with the wall of sound production. It's chaotic and overwhelming and I feel like that sound is what they were trying to go for with Kyouiku.

When I first listened to SG, I like it, but now listening to it again a lot of the songs sound like Game Show Themes. Tsugou is one of them. I get that there is a chaotic merging of styles, but it doesn't really sound inventive, because those styles are already familiar and closely related. None of these elements: Disney throwback, circus, gameshow glitz, sound unexpected.

[Glathannus]

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

Tsumi to Batsu even sounds like an Asai Kenichi tribute.

Would you still say that if he wasn't the guitarist, or if you didn't know it was him?

Aside from Asai Kenichi's signature style of guitar-playing, there isn't anything about the recording (or the composition in a broader sense) which reminds me of him. Keep in mind that at the time when Tsumi to Batsu came out, SHERBETS was emerging, and Blankey Jet City was on the verge of disbanding, while AJICO and JUDE hadn't formed yet, and his solo career wasn't launched until after Adult came out. Which (if any) of those projects could you imagine trying to perform Tsumi to Batsu? AJICO is the only one which even comes remotely close, and that's if we forget about the Hammond organ (which is another crucial component of the original recording) and try to imagine them Electric Mole-ifying the song.

I replay a lot of Asai Kenichi songs (throughout most of his projects), but not because they remind me of Tsumi to Batsu, or because Tsumi to Batsu reminds me of them. I can't say I've ever had a listening mood which included both.

[Inseu]

Don't care about Ringo's intentions. In Tsugou ii Karada, that horn or trumpet is very annoying, just like those PEZ songs which I also cannot stomach. It's the worst song on SG.

On the other hand, Onna no Ko wa Dare demo is very good because the arrangement is less overblown and thus easy on the ears.

[deadgrandma]

Deliberately staying out of this one cause I don't wanna repeat myself, though I will say that both main sides of this argument are interesting arguments, though redundant because it's not gonna convince anyone either unless they are easily swayed. I'd say the best music I've come across is almost always divided on opinion and this is no exception. It seems that the big band/showtunes are the main focal point here, but nothing said isn't blatantly obvious. Someone give me something new to read pls :-p

For example, more opinions/takes on UkiHZM maybe.

[TurtleFu]

My opinions have changed immensely since I joined this forum. Hearing other people's opinions, unless you are thickheaded, causes you to think inwards, and re-evaluate your own. And sometimes that can cause you to change your opinion. So unless you think I am "easily swayed" I think yes, these sorts of discussions matter. Hearing differing opinions matters.

I'm not as familiar with Kenichi (I've only listened to some solo stuff, Sherberts, and BJC), but I look to as a tribute in the sense that Shiina was trying to "be" Kenichi more than it being an actual song that Kenichi wrote and played.

EDIT: Tsugou no ii karada is an emotional song, and from what I understand of the lyrics I think it's very emotionally honest.

[orphic okapi]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Jihad

I don't think a Shiina Ringo with glitz and no underlying emotion is very appealing, nor do I really read her as doing it "to 11" to make a statement on it. If there's no personality or emotion, then what makes her stand out from the bevy of acts that don't hide the fact they're all show and no substance? Shiina's show or production is not even all that ear-catching at that.
Agree to disagree, maybe. If she is trying to make a subversive statement, its so subtle and transparent as to not even be there.

I find it hard to believe that someone can listen to her insane wailing around the 2:20 mark and conclude that the song contains "no personality or emotion." For me those few seconds of the song have a lot more character than the entirety of Michael Buble's discography (actually I should not make that claim, having barely listened to any of it), or Ariamaru Tomi for that matter (which I think you said you preferred, because it sounds effortless? Interestingly, I find that song pretty boring.) The desperation in her voice there does not strike me as particularly subtle.

It's kind of silly for me to be talking about any potentially "subversive statements" the song might be making when I can only understand like a third of the lyrics. I am really just talking about my emotional reaction to the song. I think we are simply reacting to the music differently.

[deadgrandma]

Carnation and Ariamaru Tomi are pretty similar if you look at Carnation acoustic version tbh. Both have that seamless, effortless flow that some may find boring.

Besides, Ringo is gonna make an album like Between Today and Tomorrow next, she told me on the phone.

Also, if making "generic" showtunes is gonna deliver a immense track like Jinsei wa Omoidoori, then fuck it, be as generic as you want.

[Osiris12345]

Late to the conversation here (as usual). Jihad, I can see what you're getting at with Onna no Ko wa Dare demo but I disagree with you on Tsugou no ii Karada. Maybe it just comes down to personal taste here but I think Tsugou sounds like a complete emotional rollercoaster. I love the brass section and the sheer scope of it all. You have the soaring chorus and, as Scribble R said, the circus breakdown of the song is just awesome. It's just as much out of left field as the ghostly haunting middle section of Torikoshi Kurou. The song goes off the rails (in a good way) during that part. And it's a nice breather after just how intense the rest of the song is. The song has momentum, it has oomph, and it's just as whimsically playful as a song like Stoicism. I liken Tsugou no ii Karada to a delicious dessert. You can't live on that alone but it's a damn good treat when you get it. In fact, the food analogy is probably a good one since lyrically the song is about beauty standards and having the perfect body. I personally think it's a wonderful song and one of my favorites from the album.

Back on topic, Carnation is okay. It kind of feels like Ariamaru Tomi's less interesting cousin.