Shiina Ringo only selling music to guys

[Osiris12345]

Originally Posted by Inseu

There are plenty of "male feminists". I did bend the term to describe guys who get very angry when an evil fanboy starts to "objectify" his favourite female singer.

Thank you for this. I'm kind of wondering what all the fuss is about in this thread against you, man. You're just asking for the female perspective on things. And is it really wrong to think Shiina Ringo is hot? Thinking someone is sexy doesn't mean you're undermining all of the other things they're capable of. I just don't really see how Inseu's objectifying Ringo. You guys are being pretty oversensitive.

Not to mention how Shiina Ringo's raw sexual energy during the SS-era is definitely intentional. Hell, KSK is very much in the same vein, just more understated. If there's one common theme I've noticed with Ringo, it's that she's obsessed with the sexual and the morbid. I do think you guys make good points about her being a lot more subversive than just saying "look at me! I'm sexy!" but she's still an attention grabber.

[NCORE]

It's not wrong to think she's hot... It would be worse to say she is butt ugly imo.

But, isn't it weird to think only men would be able to see the qualities you see in someone or something?
Gender has nothing to do with it. Insue just likes Shiina Ringo, he loved her for her voice alone and it couldn't go wrong from there.




even if she looked like a cow? (Now that's a pretty thought)

[Inseu]

Originally Posted by NCORE

But, isn't it weird to think only men would be able to see the qualities you see in someone or something?

Not weird at all.

For example, Justin Bieber looks ok to me. I can see why teenage girls like him, but I'm not attracted to him myself.

Similarly, I greatly enjoy Shiina Ringo's feminine charm, while female fans can see that, they don't necessarily enjoy her music for the same reason. They can't relate.

It's like watching a soccer match, fans of two teams focus on the team they support, and they end up watching two different matches.

[BlueApple]

I'm just going to make comments on things 1 x 1, feel free to tell me that I'm overly sensitive.

1) I don't think the initial intent of the thread is harmful or completely offensive just misinformed. BUT then Inseu made some comments that I felt were pretty out of line such as Ringo not minding being objectified or that she wants people to think with "dicks" so to speak.

I personally felt these statements were offensive because:

A) No one WANTS to be objectified. No one wants to be treated like they are less of a person. So, Inseu's statement that "Miss Apple doesn't mind being objectified" comes off as both incredibly insensitive and sexist even though he seems to not have meant it that way.

&

B) Ringo is a woman who is clearly very interested in sexual subjects, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As a young woman, she took that sexuality and owned it. Good for her! But I think it's a gross misinterpretation to say that she is doing it for people to "think with their dicks" implying that she is doing it for the sexual pleasure of her fans, male or otherwise. I'm pretty sure she was trying to get people to think with their minds about how they see and interpret sexuality, etc.

2) Inseu responded to my initial post, and took a quote from it "I am pretty sure Shiina Ringo is her own person and not some pop idol who is basically manufactured from top to bottom"

The reason I said this is because Inseu's statement made it seem like "Ringo dresses sexily to please fans." I honestly believe Ringo does what she does because she wants to, she enjoys doing it, and she might even have a deeper meaning behind it. When I referenced pop idols I meant, pop idols who are "manufactured" in the sense these girls are TRAINED to become what they are such Korean-Chinese pop group Miss A.

I believe Inseu misinterpreted what I said by saying Ringo takes influences from pop musicians. This is something I completely understand. It's totally normal for artists to be influenced by others or to pay tribute to them. God knows how many people do this with Michael Jackson, even before his death, but I digress. I'm just saying "being influenced by others = OKAY" "doing things against your own will solely for the benefit others=NOT OKAY"

Inseu also referenced Nancy Sinatra and compared it to the dancers in OSCA, but since this is a point made about the dancers and not Ringo, I don't see what this has to do with the conversation at hand. Also, I've only seen Spa & Treatment ONE TIME, and I'm currently not in possession of a copy which I can review the moment Inseu is particularly referring to. I CAN TELL YOU THOUGH that moments when Ringo has removed a piece of clothing during a performance is most likely a reference to Kabuki, a hikinuki (on-stage costume change).

3) Here's a lesson for everyone who doesn't understand what the word feminist means because I don't think some you are getting it? The reason frecklegirl pointed out that there is NO SUCH THING AS A MALE FEMINIST is because a feminist is a PERSON who supports feminism. There is NO NEED for the male qualification. If you advocate women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men, THEN CONGRATS YOU ARE A FEMINIST wear the name with pride because you are not a sexist jerk. Hooray. I just get irritated when people see the terms feminist & feminism and think they only apply to women because that's just not true.

4) In one of Inseu's post he said "Incredibly catchy avant-garde, jazzy pop-rock sung by a sexy nurse dominatrix whose powerful voice touches my soul. That's like a twisted fantasy come true." When you equate a person with a fantasy (which is a thing), then you are objectifying them. Just saying.

5) Now some people are saying 'hey why you are being so hard on this guy who finds Ringo sexy? there's nothing wrong with finding someone sexy.' No there is nothing wrong with finding a person sexy, hot, attractive, cute whatever descriptive adjective you choose. BUT it's mostly the other statements made in this thread, and the fact that for some reason Inseu thinks that clearly women can't see this part of Shiina Ringo waaaat?

6) Lastly, this statement by Inseu "Similarly, I greatly enjoy Shiina Ringo's feminine charm, while female fans can see that, they don't necessarily enjoy her music for the same reason. They can't relate."

I'm just going to say this. I LOVE Shiina Ringo. I REALLY, REALLY DO ♪. I like the way she sings. I like the way she looks. I am entranced by her when I watch her concerts because the combination of her appearance, mannerisms, voice, and amazing music just seem to all work together in an incredibly pleasing and harmonious performance. I can get INCREDIBLY FAN GIRLY AND STUPID OVER HER. So for someone to say that "Women can appreciate Ringo's feminine charm but not actually enjoy her music for these reasons" BAFFLES ME.

P.S. is Ringo only allowed to have heterosexual Male and Female fans? As Glath & Nimh both pointed out there are quite a few gay men who enjoy Shiina's music. THEY EXIST. THEY ARE PEOPLE. As I am sure there are -gasp- LESBIANS who like Shiina Ringo who -gasp- MIGHT FIND HER ATTRACTIVE... all while being -gasp- FEMALE. WHOA. I JUST TURNED YOUR WHOLE WORLD UPSIDE-DOWN, SIR. Don't forget that there are also people in this world who are trans* & possibly fans of Shiina Ringo because they are people, too.

tl; dr. I REALLY like Shiina Ringo, and I am female. (◡‿◡✿) and I don't care if people think I am being overly emotional or sensitive. I apologize for giving a shit?

and with that I am done.

[Nimh]

I don't like the word "objectify" when it's bandied around like this.

I know that Ringo isn't just an image on a screen or a mediated voice, but I also know that what I respond to is MEDIATED. A product of choices. Most of them done by Ringo herself.

Are we supposed to watch the Honnou video and think "WHOA, this is hot stuff but this is not *real* therefore I should NOT use these images to stimulate my fantasies because we're only ever supposed to fantasize about NORMAL-LOOKING PEOPLE or we'll all turn into sexist pigs with impossible standards of beauty!"

Fine, I'll mosaic-censor the gurney lip-lock and bleep out the part where the sexy nurse tells me to "stimulate" her.

EDITED TO ADD: For the record, I think Ringo's more "erotic" than down-to-earth "sexy." Which is why the OSCA performance on Bon Voyage was so weird...it was like watching a ballet dancer in a bar fight.

[Inseu]

Hi Miss BlueApple, you overwhelmed me with your long post, which touched my soul...hahaha.

Shiina Ringo is a thoughtful lyricist, but I don't find her work preachy. How can you be sure that "she was trying to get people to think with their minds about how they see and interpret sexuality"? Maybe she just came up with the lyrics smoothly while recording in the studio without deep philosophical thought. Who knows?

Originally Posted by BlueApple

I think it's a gross misinterpretation to say that she is doing it for people to "think with their dicks" implying that she is doing it for the sexual pleasure of her fans, male or otherwise."

She clearly enjoys writing good music, but at the same time she is a musician who entertains millions of fans. Plus she never had that uncommercial attitude. She would do things to push sales. Let's consider Tokyo Jihen's new B-Side compilation Shinyawaku. The album cover is an anime girl wearing a bikini, and inside the liner notes, the girl takes off her bikini. That's exactly fan service, a term that means intentionally pleasing the audience. Why do all TJ albums have titles refer to the television? Do they aim to grab people’s attention?

Originally Posted by BlueApple

Inseu also referenced Nancy Sinatra and compared it to the dancers in OSCA, but since this is a point made about the dancers and not Ringo, I don't see what this has to do with the conversation at hand.

That has everything to do with Ringo, she arranged the performance and dressed up like a flower and stood in the middle. At that moment, she was exactly a pop idol. And look at all the fans waving flags.

Originally Posted by BlueApple

4) In one of Inseu's post he said "Incredibly catchy avant-garde, jazzy pop-rock sung by a sexy nurse dominatrix whose powerful voice touches my soul. That's like a twisted fantasy come true." When you equate a person with a fantasy (which is a thing), then you are objectifying them. Just saying.

That's just terrible analysis. My point was that a charismatic female singer who blends rock and jazz in an extraordinary way would usually only appear in one's fantasy, but Shiina Ringo realized it.

Most importantly, sticks and stones will break your bones, but words should never harm you! Don’t pay too much attention on the wording! You see, I myself find the term “think with their dicks" incredibly annoying, but I’m not really the one who used it…

[TurtleFu]

There are other members on this forum who have called Ringo sexy, or referred to her being sexy before. DeadGrandma and W3iHong, for example. I never felt the need to say anything because the problematic part is not thinking that Ringo is sexy.
If you have the time, I think it would be helpful to read an article by Jean Kilbourne or even watch one of her videos on YouTube (Killing Us Softly 3 is the best IMO). She talks mostly about advertising but her casual tone is really good at explaining terms like "objectifying" and how it can contribute to the way culture treats women in negative ways.

[guilty monk]

Originally Posted by Inseu

That has everything to do with Ringo, she arranged the performance and dressed up like a flower and stood in the middle. At that moment, she was exactly a pop idol. And look at all the fans waving flags.

Translation: If your audience waves flags during your show, you are a pop idol.

Might as well say "If your audience has any form of fun during your show, you are a pop idol". And that means GG Allin was a sugoi kawaii desu pop idol.

[Inseu]

To me, it's no different than seeing a Madonna show. It's pure entertainment. The fans are crazy about their idol, waving the band's flag religiously as a form of worship and support.

Shiina Ringo is in a way an idol singer, but she reached a height other idols can never reach. Also, in Japan, the boundary between an idol singer and a rock star is very blurry. YUKI and Jun Togawa can also be considered idol singers. There's no need to get upset over the name "idol".

[frecklegirl]

Originally Posted by BlueApple

3) Here's a lesson for everyone who doesn't understand what the word feminist means because I don't think some you are getting it? The reason frecklegirl pointed out that there is NO SUCH THING AS A MALE FEMINIST is because a feminist is a PERSON who supports feminism. There is NO NEED for the male qualification. If you advocate women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men, THEN CONGRATS YOU ARE A FEMINIST wear the name with pride because you are not a sexist jerk. Hooray. I just get irritated when people see the terms feminist & feminism and think they only apply to women because that's just not true.

Thank you, that's exactly what I meant and it got twisted, probably because of the language barrier thing. And yes, Inseu, I do see that you were trying to use "male feminist" as an insult of some kind, and I was letting you know that I reject that on every count.

Let's try not to patronize each other, please. It doesn't make your point any stronger.