Kyouiku vs Adult vs Sanmon Gossip

[deadgrandma]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Jihad

Don't think about how "n everybody might not like it if it's too unapproachable."

I gotta question this. If you're accusing Ringo of this, then WHY would she drop the style of SS for her SG style? Seems like a very personal choice to me. It's NOT doing whatever everyone wants whatsoever, its what she wants. If you can't see this, then I don't know what to say. You don't have to like it, but I find statements like that about Ringo a bit contradictory.

[Inseu]

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

"inventive use of melodica"
She put in a melodica in an Enka song. OMG SO EXPERIMENTAL.

"original enka is blues and melancholic"
Uh, have you ever even heard the Hibari Misora original?

Now, if you are going to say something, back it up with evidence instead of just saying "Togatta Teguchi is experimental because I say so".

Why are you so dismissive of Ringo using different musical instruments to create her own unique sound? That's innovation right there. It's as dismissive as saying the Doors are just pop/rock with an organ.

I heard different versions of the songs and don't remember which is the original. One is slow. Another one is funky. But Ringo's version has the hard-rock sound ("rock sensibility").

The word "experiment" itself is an abstract word. There isn't even a set of criteria that you can use to judge what is experimental. Also, why try so hard to make something objective out of music? Of course it's experimental because I said so. "This song is better than that song" as if only your ears can tell.

[Inseu]

Jihad I love my Ringo slick and shiny and looking good. A girl who is warm and compassionate by day, a classy girl who knows how to enjoy a cup of coffee, a girl who gets wild when night comes, a girl with that kind of twist. Sounds familiar?

Otherwise I'd be partying with tUnE-yArDs and Diamanda Galás.

[Scribble R]

Originally Posted by Inseu

Jihad I love my Ringo slick and shiny and looking good. A girl who is warm and compassionate by day, a classy girl who knows how to enjoy a cup of coffee, a girl who gets wild when night comes, a girl with that kind of twist. Sounds familiar?

Otherwise I'd be partying with tUnE-yArDs and Diamanda Galás.

You’re doing this on purpose now, aren’t you :-P You’ve chosen your thing and you’re gonna run with it.

[TurtleFu]

If you honestly cannot tell the difference between Ringo using a melodica in Kurumaya-san and, say, the way she used instruments in KZK then there is nothing more I can say.

Of course experimental is comparative! That's what we've both been saying! You said Togatta Teguchi was experimental in the context of Ringo's catalog and I disagreed!

Using evidence to back up your opinions is the difference between critical discussion and yelling at a brick wall. One of the reasons I like this forum is because most of the people are really smart and can tear apart my arguments with ease (Maou, I'm looking at you), which forces me to think more critically and analyze more thoughtfully.

EDIT:
Just so you know, there's a rule in the forum that says you should edit your post to add things instead of double positing. I've noticed you double posting a couple times so I didn't know if you were aware.

[Tokyo Jihad]

Originally Posted by deadgrandma

I gotta question this. If you're accusing Ringo of this, then WHY would she drop the style of SS for her SG style? Seems like a very personal choice to me. It's NOT doing whatever everyone wants whatsoever, its what she wants. If you can't see this, then I don't know what to say. You don't have to like it, but I find statements like that about Ringo a bit contradictory.

It doesn't sound or feel personal to me. Nothing past Kyouiku really feels very personal to me that she has done. Sure it likely is a personal choice to not make personal music, but that isn't saying anything.

Here's what it sounds like to me: she makes KZK, a very personal record, and given the huge successes she had 2-3 years earlier she was given carte blanche practically. KZK is given to the record execs, they flip out at how difficult it is to market. They have Shiina do the stiff and stuffy Baisho Exstasy tour to try to play to an older audience. The record comes out, it doesn't do very well (to her previous benchmarks anyway.) The execs be heavy on Shiina for not selling well. Guilt + japanese culture take their toll, she says "enough of that then," and swears off the stuff. She has gone on to refer to KZK as "unchallenged ego" or something to that effect, which is a negative spin (but something might be lost in translation.) Shiina focuses on music that is accessible first ever since.

How'd I do?

Apart from a few interviews, I don't want to seem like I have any inside info. I'm just piecing together history spoken and conveyed. Any other way and I find it highly improbable someone goes from Souretsu to Onna no ko wa Dare demo in such a relatively short time. You can scoff my theory aside because you like post-Adult stuff if you like. Your thought is as good as mine. That's what I hear. What I hear in Teguchi is similar to what I hear in Miley Cyrus' "Can't be Tamed." Sure its made to sound loud and tough, but at no point would you change the station if grandma or baby Suzie was listening.

[deadgrandma]

I'm not the one saying Toggata Teguchi is experimental here, but I still feel SG on the whole is a whole bunch "less approachable" to the general listener than you give it credit for. I find MM and SS strip's singles the most radio friendly/poppy out of all the solo stuff. KZK and SG are where its at for me personally, both nearly polar opposites and both albums of their respective year. I don't think she's become less personal, just shifted interest in style. I understand why someone such as yourself wouldn't like it much, but come on, for me shits fucking fresh 3 years on, how can I question that?

[Inseu]

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

Of course experimental is comparative! That's what we've both been saying! You said Togatta Teguchi was experimental in the context of Ringo's catalog and I disagreed!

Using evidence to back up your opinions is the difference between critical discussion and yelling at a brick wall. One of the reasons I like this forum is because most of the people are really smart and can tear apart my arguments with ease (Maou, I'm looking at you), which forces me to think more critically and analyze more thoughtfully.

Then what do Muse have anything do with Togatta Teguchi being experimental in the context of Ringo's catalog? Even though according to you electro-rock has been done to death, I find Ringo's take unique and refreshing.

Now let's look at your so-called evidence "Yokushitsu and Tsumiki Asobi are both more experimental than Togatta Teguchi", which I also disagree. Yokushitsu, though exceptionally well-done, sounds just like a homage to Depeche Mode songs such as Strange Love.

Tsumiki Asobi on Zazen Extasy opens with a disco beat, and it's rather simplistic. If you were referring to the Japanese music in the middle section, then I agree that Ringo is a master at blending genres, but overall it's still a hard rock song with Ringo's slight Japanese touch.

It's a good debate though, but the outcome would usually be two people unable to convince each other of anything.

@Jihad: "Shiina focuses on music that is accessible first ever since."

Her first singles Koufukuron and Kabuki-chou no Joou hit people over the head with big yummy J-pop melodies, and the noise rock frenzy of Ringo no Uta isn't exactly for everyone either. But deadgrandma said it all so I won't say more...

"What I hear in Teguchi is similar to what I hear in Miley Cyrus' "Can't be Tamed."

I have a feeling you are drenched in shitty pop music you cannot help but compare plastic songs like this to Ringo's latest work. Didn't you also recently imply that you have a crush on Taylor Swift?...

[Tokyo Jihad]

Originally Posted by Inseu

Her first singles Koufukuron and Kabuki-chou no Joou hit people over the head with big yummy J-pop melodies, and the noise rock frenzy of Ringo no Uta isn't exactly for everyone either. But deadgrandma said it all so I won't say more...
...
I have a feeling you are drenched in shitty pop music you cannot help but compare plastic songs like this to Ringo's latest work. Didn't you also recently imply that you have a crush on Taylor Swift?...

Well now we're just picking and choosing aren't we? Togatta Teguchi is experimental but Kabuki-cho no Jou is "hit over the head" Jpop. Shiina's first two singles are the sound of a very young artist growing and just happy to be invited the meeting. You conveniently sell Kabuki-cho no Jou short. It's poppy, its catchy, but its sung very forcibly. She peaks in to her screechy vocals, that she would very soon feature prominently, but just a flash so as not to be too abrasive, but to catch ears. The production is very simple and clean. There's nothing over the top or cheesy like one would hear from jpop of this era. Very traditional, cross-culture pop-rock. Koufukuron is very jpop. But it is also the product of a seventeen year old, who on her debut album would excise this cut from the album. And just how often would Shiina Ringo ever perform the single version of Koufukuron during her artistic prime?

What happened to "everyone has to have one trashy jpop star"? I will listen to pop. I will listen to the radio. Staying in a hipster echo chamber (or a top 40 echo chamber, or any such situation) doesn't an informed opinion make. I try to grow one at least. I'm a sucker for a few pop artists, Taylor Swift among them. Not saying she's a voice for a generation, but she has some catchy catchy songs. Which I believe to be her intention. (Aside from making oodles of cash for her executives.)

[deadgrandma]

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

Using evidence to back up your opinions is the difference between critical discussion and yelling at a brick wall. One of the reasons I like this forum is because most of the people are really smart and can tear apart my arguments with ease (Maou, I'm looking at you), which forces me to think more critically and analyze more thoughtfully.

Doesn't mean you have to instantly change your opinion either though- I'd rather you be your own man than a suck up ;-p