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Old 2019.05.29, 11:32 AM   #121
zeroryouko
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Originally Posted by shirasagi View Post
Really what I have a problem with is exactly what you address in the very last paragraph. While I understand your disappointment, why should it matter what each of us "wants" from Ringo's music? Everyone is complaining about how Ringo sold out, but having no agency of one's own and just delivering what everyone else would like is much more disingenuous to me. KZK was life-changing, but how life-changing would it be if she stayed on that level, for argument's sake? Or in reverse, do you think she would succeed if she tried to do the same thing all over again? (not saying she wouldn't, just asking)
I think that perhaps I didn't do a good job of conveying what I was trying to convey with the last paragraph. You had asked specifically what it was that we wanted to hear, musically, track by track. I am not in any way a musician nor am I versed in music theory, so I can't really discuss the album from that kind of technical perspective.

But the point I was trying to make is that the hallmark of good music is that it creates a narrative - a journey being a very relatable type of narrative. Humans love to create narratives - indeed it could be argued that the nature of consciousness itself is a narrative we create, minute by minute, to explain where we've been, where we are, and where we're going. And while the value of any narrative is ultimately subjective, there are ways we can at least partially quantify it.

There's a lot of talk on this forum, for example, about dynamic range, as it relates to the recordings themselves. And in that context, dynamic range is more or less an objective means of measuring what is ultimately a subjective, individual experience, that of listener fatigue. I would propose that there is also a "dramatic range" that could be applied to musical or theatrical or literary works. And like dynamic range, while the usual criticism is that there's too little, there can also be too much.

Going back to topography, there is the idea of topographic prominence. It is basically a quantitative measure of how high a particular mountain peak appears to be in relation to what's around it. The tallest mountain peak in a range of tall peaks does not by itself look all that impressive; compare this to something like Mt. Fuji which is far taller than anything else around it. Music needs to reach those dramatic peaks sometimes.

For me the specific analogy of music as a journey is very real and actually somewhat literal. There are specific passages in Ringo's music that I can listen to and immediately envision a place I've been, at a specific time of day. Izonshou, for example - as soon as she starts singing "Atashi ga, kono mama..." I am on the cliffs at sunset overlooking the ocean at a point near my house. After noticing this, I actually went there and played it, and it was everything I'd hoped it would be.

A journey must have at minimum a beginning and a destination. Ideally the destination is somewhere significant. A journey shouldn't be too boring either; the best have twists and surprises along the way that induce excitement (but not so many as to induce apprehension). Those intermediate moments should be in themselves memorable, and occasionally spaced with a little room to breathe and just appreciate where one has been so far.

So, trying to put all of that into practice for Sandokushi:
  • The album, stylistically, veers haphazardly from one extreme to the next. It doesn't *flow*; the transitions are too abrupt. For example, Tori to Hebi to Buta -> Kemono Yuku Hosomichi is very obviously trying to accomplish what Shuukyou -> Doppelganger did, but it just winds up sounding like a compilation instead of an actual transition.
  • The old songs are just too familiar at this point. Tori to Hebi to Buta starts us off going somewhere that promises to be amazing, and then suddenly we are almost literally back at the fucking mall.
  • Speaking of the mall, the remix of Menukidoori was a mistake. Tortoise Matsumoto is most certainly not Shiina Ringo, vocally, and putting more emphasis on his voice than hers makes the song feel a lot flatter. I should note that I actually came to like the original.
  • And speaking of flatness, Isogabamaware is just that. The melody seems featureless; it's kind of "samey" throughout. There isn't a really good hook, for one thing.
  • Contrast all of the above to Kakeochimono. It starts dramatically. Ringo's performance is thrilling, and Sakurai Atsushi's voice complements it nicely. The melody is memorable and the dissonance is downright savory. The only criticisms, really, are that the chorus is a *little* too cloying to mesh properly with the "weirdness" of the rest of the song, and it could use a bigger finish.
Originally Posted by shirasagi View Post
It's also funny you tell me not to speak about Kate Bush, because frankly that is the closest comparison I can make - not stylistically, but moreso in their artistry. Ringo in her heyday had a very similar approach to music, thinking outside the box and defying predefined categories, and making music that was incredibly bold and yet still completely accessible. They both made music which was pop and yet couldn't be further from pop music at the same time. Kate Bush has literally pushed the then-available technology to its limits, and Hounds of Love and The Dreaming are still two albums that sound like nothing else, even within her catalogue, and have aged incredibly well. She's the kind of artist who's had the kind of impact so great it becomes invisible.
In short, Kate Bush was pushing the musical envelope in the 80s much like Ringo has in the early 2000s, and it's a damn shame she wasn't heard all over the world. I'm sure we'll all agree on that.

If you never did, sacrifice twenty minutes of your life and listen to the back half of Hounds of Love ("The Ninth Wave"). Maybe it will be a life-changing experience, I know it was for me, and mind you that was AFTER I heard and fell in love with KZK
I think what you are telling me, in a very polite way, is to stop being so narrow-minded when it comes to Ringo vs. other artists. That is a fair criticism, so, point taken.

I will admit that I wrote that part, to a certain extent, out of pique. My experience with KZK was a very personal, subjective, one-time-only thing. Its effect went far beyond the music itself. So, yeah, I took it personally, and got a bit butthurt. I apologize.

There are definitely a lot of people out there who are criticizing Ringo for purely personal reasons. There are also a lot of steadfast fans who are so for purely personal reasons. The challenge is to keep the semi-rational, fully emotional aspects of the content itself in a sandbox, separated from one's personal feelings about the performer. I have always tried, but not always succeeded, to do so.

Originally Posted by shirasagi View Post
And speaking of, maybe Ringo should take a cue from her and just completely disappear for twelve years. I'm pretty sure there would be more gratitude for her even making music in the first place.
I think this is the simplest part to argue: Ringo is showing obvious signs of burnout. The cure is a long hiatus.
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Old 2019.05.29, 12:59 PM   #122
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zero, thank you so much for that post. THIS is what I want these forums to be. I do want you to know that I really loved what you had to say. I could finally see things from your perspective. That Sputnikmusic review, for instance, is Exhibit A on how not to do it.

If criticism is put in the way you just did it, we would have amazing discussions over here. Mind you, I don't even think it's fun to agree all the time, but I really wish the criticisms at - in this case the new album - would be leveled in the way you just did it. And sure enough, communicating online lacks the nuance of a live conversation, so I'm very sure I come across saltier than I really am. What is really my point is to bring out a different perspective and, being a fan of Ringo's new music, hopefully challenge what has become the consensus. After all, it's not like we are going to change where she is headed as an artist, and there is so much to be discussed, so why not have fun in the process? And always agreeing is not fun either - but there are ways to disagree which are less toxic than a lot of the discourse has been in this fan community for a long time.

So anyway, I'm not going to counter you on anything you said above because I get it. And while I'm already writing, I'm going to give you a little anecdote directly related to Ringo which made me reevaluate a lot of things.

I spent a year in Tokyo between September 2017 and 2018, which as you know is when Reimport Vol. 2 came out and the Air Pocket tour was happening. Having listened to Ringo since fifteen and having this unwavering love for her, I think it's safe to say that seeing her live was literally the only concert on my bucket list that I absolutely had to see. So I bought a copy of the CD and one for a friend, with the lottery coupons in there and applied. Both have fallen through. Come the day the tickets went on sale, they were immediately sold out and I wasn't able to buy them, even though I literally got up earlier to be at my computer at the right time. Immediately, the tickets appeared on Viagogo at tenfold the price, which of course I didn't have. And then there were those last-minute lotteries, so I applied for each and every one of them in the Tokyo area. All in all, I tried to get tickets to seven or eight shows, and wasn't able to get a single one. Meanwhile, my friend had another friend in Ringohan, so his ticket was secure from the get go - and then he had the nerve to complain about the concert to me. It wasn't even his first one! So my lifelong dream of seeing Ringo live, which was at my fingertips, just evaporated like that. Seven times. I think no album she will release from then on will compare to the disappointment I felt time and time again during her tour, and chances are I will never be in Japan while she's touring. I basically had to make peace with the fact that I will never see her, and that was one of the few things I had on a proverbial bucket list - and pretty much the only one I had for my stay in Japan.
But it was also that experience which put a lot of things in perspective for me. Great expectations set you up for great disappointments, and once I realized that, I actually became a much happier person. I don't even feel sad about not being able to see her anymore, as much as that would still be cool.

Long story short, I suppose I really just don't "want" anything from her. I'm glad she's still making music twenty years on (that's not a given), and I'm even more glad that I happen to enjoy that music. Maybe that's why it upsets me to see literal outrage at her music. And maybe it's a strange point of view - I'm willing to admit that.

So, having veered kind of totally off topic, I want to thank you once again for how you approached this discussion and again, I'd love to see more posts like this. Certainly it would be a lot more exciting to read that than "kill it with fire" comments.
And really listen to the b-side of Hounds of Love sometime, I promise it's KZK level goodness.
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Old 2019.05.29, 06:23 PM   #123
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BTW, I don't see many of the more 'positive' fans writing any in depth critiques either, just to make the playing field even.


It's just that it comes down to that the album is pretty damn shallow I suppose, there's not all that much to say about it cause half of it is old news. Can't expect too much excitement from a padded out EP. Especially when it's been a five year wait (practically an eternity in J-pop time). Western artists would be crucified for that.


@Shirasagi: Have you ever listened to Jun Togawa's 'Tamahime-sama' btw? That's the best of the best IMO.
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Old 2019.05.29, 08:33 PM   #124
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My review below - I wanted to take a few days and repeated listens to unpack my feelings about the album, even as they're still crystallizing...


-----

Some general thoughts before I dive deeper below:
  • The album sounds like a natural progression from Gyakuyunyuu, Vol. 2
  • Does the album live up to the hype? Not quite
  • Is the album a solid work? I think so

Sandokushi is an interesting case where the album context elevates virtually all of the singles, yet the album suffers as a whole because of their inclusion. A single like Kemono Yuku Hosomichi might not be exactly a fan favorite, but it makes sense and fits both the theme and aesthetic of the album. Same with Menukidoori, which makes for a satisfying climax. A song like Jiyuu-dom sticks out incredibly however (although the jazz outro flows well into Menukidoori), and seems to contradict Ringo’s statement that she’d written each single from the past few years with an album context in mind. It’s not Onna no Ko-level left-field, but who thought this made sense?

This lack of flow exemplified by Jiyuu-dom, as others have already stated, undermines the album’s cohesion every time it gets interesting and you think it’ll explore the thematic undercurrent at a more meaningful level. Certain songs clearly make sense here, even if they have their detractors: Kakeochi-mono with its darker sound makes sense; TOKYO makes sense; the opener and closer do a wonderful job of bookending the album.

It’s not necessarily the transitions at issue - I do think the Ma Cherie/Kakeochi-mono transition is rather cool - as the track order and inclusion of singles that don’t fit. While Nagaku Mijikai Matsuri’s presence isn’t as painfully jarring as (again) Jiyuu-dom, who thought it would fare well preceding Shijou no Jinsei, one of the most solid rockers here?

(In a larger sense, strange choices like this make me wonder how much creative control Universal has strong-armed from her, but I digress.)

Still, I’d be writing in bad faith if I didn’t mention the album’s stronger aspects. Tori to Hebi to Buta still intrigues me as it’s steeped in an interesting arrangement and makes heavy use of the Buddhist theme to introduce the album’s lore (even if the rest doesn’t quite live up to the promise). A no Yo no Mon is an obvious contender for best track: Its refined, relaxed sound reminiscent of recent Megumi Hayashibara collabs showcases Ringo’s sharp composition skills and tasteful use of the Vanya Moneva Choir. Ma Cherie is quintessential Phase 2-Ringo at her best, even if it’s not groundbreaking territory. Kakeochi-mono is a solid indication Ringo still has room to experiment with new sounds, and I’ve missed this aggressive energy for some time.

I can’t really say there are any genuinely awful tracks here, just ones that make less sense. Even with all the criticism of Isogaba Maware I can’t hate it; it’s catchy enough (although slightly incoherent) and reminds me of Phase 1 Jihen with its darker sound. Call it a poor man’s If You Can Touch It, but I’ll take it over Jiyuu-dom. Speaking of which, I hate to throw this track under this bus again, but I still can’t say I hate Jiyuu-dom - it just makes me ask, “Why?”...

Which may be my greatest takeaway from Sandokushi: I come away with more questions than answers. Why phone in what could’ve been her strongest album since Sanmon Gossip under the guise of a Buddhist concept? Why include tracks that clearly don’t make sense on the album? Why not channel the creative energy that allowed amazing collabs with Sayuri Ishikawa and Megumi Hayashibara into creating something novel for Ringo's own work? This is really all turning the same wheel though, and isn’t going anywhere new.

What we have here is a skeleton of an album, but without much of the meat to make it full-bodied. I’ll go out on a limb here though and say that I think this is a stronger album than SUNNY. The first half of that album was very cohesive, but after Irohanihoheto it falls apart only to culminate in the 5-year-old closer Ariamaru Tomi. The fact that Sandokushi has a proper closer does it a lot of good will in my eyes, even if it doesn’t have the same peaks as, say, Hashirewa Number or JL005-bin de.

With that said, I’m not even sure if SUNNY is the proper comparison to make here. This album most reminds me of Daihakken, which had interesting songs that didn’t live up to the concept of its title (what happened to Discovery?) and mostly represented Tokyo Jihen going out with a whimper. Even so, I’d argue that Sandokushi is proof that Ringo still has the old ambition and artistic flair within her, even if she’s not quite sure what she has to say.

7.2/10

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Old 2019.05.29, 10:15 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by zeroryouko View Post
KZK was life-changing. In my world, there has never been an equal, and there never will be. It was not only a great album, it elevated the concept of what music even was. Now I am willing to accept that a lot of that feeling is based on my personal experience, or maybe lack thereof, and that the experience is unique to that album and can never be duplicated, even by Ringo. But to go from *that*...to *this*....it makes me fucking cry, is what it does.
I second that
And DUDE, your panoramic description of how you feel music was fucking poetic!
But in my case musical ecstasy is when a song makes me feel as if I'm looking through the windows of a car that is entering into a big city at night in the rain, and I can see the skyscrapers far in the distance, until the car finally reaches downtown and I can see everything up close... OR when a song makes me feel as if I'm floating on a blue pool laying on top of a giant inflatable donut under the sun, and I bend my back and my head so my scalp can touch the cold water.
Originally Posted by thespidereggs View Post
Why phone in what could’ve been her strongest album since Sanmon Gossip under the guise of a Buddhist concept? Why include tracks that clearly don’t make sense on the album? Why not channel the creative energy that allowed amazing collabs with Sayuri Ishikawa and Megumi Hayashibara into creating something novel for Ringo's own work? This is really all turning the same wheel though, and isn’t going anywhere new.
...
I’d argue that Sandokushi is proof that Ringo still has the old ambition and artistic flair within her, even if she’s not quite sure what she has to say.
Exactly what I wonder!!! If the tracks she did for Sayuri Ishikawa e Megumi Hayashibara were in this album instead they would have made the album so much better! So she is definitely still capable of great things, why is she treating her own career like that? Maybe she is really unsure of what she has to say, that's why this trilogy seems like afterthoughts or unfinished ideas

btw, in Brazil we had a singer who wanted to be the Brazilian Kate Bush
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEbI92qeEu8
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Old 2019.05.30, 03:59 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by deadgrandma View Post
BTW, I don't see many of the more 'positive' fans writing any in depth critiques either, just to make the playing field even.


It's just that it comes down to that the album is pretty damn shallow I suppose, there's not all that much to say about it cause half of it is old news. Can't expect too much excitement from a padded out EP. Especially when it's been a five year wait (practically an eternity in J-pop time). Western artists would be crucified for that.


@Shirasagi: Have you ever listened to Jun Togawa's 'Tamahime-sama' btw? That's the best of the best IMO.
You're right. Maybe I wasn't being clear and I don't mind reading "negative" reviews, like the one on your blog really was good, and I have nothing to push back against with thespidereggs' review and zeroryouko's assessment. My complaint boils down to the fact that I'd just like to chew on something more. But it looks like that's happening already!

I personally am not sure how good of a music review I would write myself; besides I am writing talks and papers all the time now, so I'm constantly in analytical mode and don't even have the energy right now. But I was thinking that maybe I could look at the lyrics closer and see how those hold up to the concept? "Ma Cherie" is very obviously about vanity, for instance, and then "TOKYO" as the axis track is about existential exhaustion for a lack of a better term. In that context, I think it's really funny that the song about vanity was used for a cosmetics commercial, it comes across as a little sarcastic honestly. So maybe that's how I could contribute to the discourse here? Would anyone even find it interesting?
Ringo's always been an amazing lyricist, and regardless of how you find the musical choices, what she sings can't be faulted. Maybe that's a big factor in why I enjoy her recent work...? It's kind of the same thing with Utada's last two albums. Maybe not the most groundbreaking stuff on purely musical terms, but the whole package takes you on an emotional journey. Fantôme is an incredibly cathartic album.

I did hear Togawa's albums a long time ago (my favorite one used to be Togawa Fiction), and thanks for the reminder, I'll dig them up again. I'm one of those people who are unable to listen to her on a regular basis though, it becomes a bit of a sensory overload for me in large doses, but I do admire her greatly as an artist. In fact I see her more as a performance artist than just a musician and there's a lot going on there. She certainly had this subversiveness that's very singular, there is no one else like her, and her music is incredibly smart. I imagine seeing her live must be an experience for a lifetime. So yeah, I'm that basic beyotch that admittedly finds her "difficult", but I do admire her genius and honestly just the BALLS. That's very inspiring.



@thespidereggs, thank you for that interesting read. You know what, I was wondering whether Reimport 2 would be any indication as to the direction of this album. Like Reimport 1 and SUNNY weirdly work in a tandem for me. I'll spin Reimport 2 again today then. I agree it doesn't live up to the "hype" (although to be fair, didn't we just get carried away with speculation? We knew what we're getting after the final tracklist was announced, at the latest), but is a solid work. I'd LOVE to hear an opinion of someone who's never heard the singles previously, but good luck finding that person, right?

To me, the album also feels like a natural progression from Sunny, honestly. I mean, there's no way around it since Ringo started dropping the singles pretty much immediately afterward, but I do see a strong connection particularly in the more pronounced Latin influences - before Sunny, Ringo would do a "Latin song" here and there (Kuroi Orufe, Omatsurisawagi, Keshounaoshi etc), but on Sunny she was more in your face about it. This goes into darker moods and there's more focus on guitars, but otherwise the two correspond very well in my opinion. And re: cohesiveness, I was listening to Sunny after a long time recently and found that the album would work better if it just ended with Arikitarina Onna - what with all the "goodbyes" in the lyrics, and I think the fuzzy amp sound in the end would be a perfect final moment for an album. Ever since then, I can't help but consider everything that follows as not much more than bonus tracks. And personally, I'd feel much better about NIPPON (which is my least favorite Ringo song by a wide margin) and Ariamaru Tomi being included if they were demarcated as such. Also, the album would be much tighter at 9 tracks... but oh well.

@Lena-chan, who is that chick? I was just really confused by that video, haha.
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Old 2019.05.30, 06:56 AM   #127
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I felt the album flowed pretty well actually. Just listened to it once through my laptop speakers, so I need to do a listen with some good headphones and in the car before judging it. Haven't listened to the newer stuff enough to judge

Stylistically it is all over the place.

For next career moves, since she's already working with HZM and Ukigumo you might as well do the 2020 Jihen reunion, do a little tour, maybe put out an EP. Could do a full album if they want but an EP could be done like Color Bars and leave room/time for Ringo to do a completely different project in the same timeframe if she wants.
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Old 2019.05.30, 11:31 AM   #128
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I liked the album but I wish there was more new songs. It could’ve been great.

Originally Posted by thefro View Post
For next career moves, since she's already working with HZM and Ukigumo you might as well do the 2020 Jihen reunion, do a little tour, maybe put out an EP. Could do a full album if they want but an EP could be done like Color Bars and leave room/time for Ringo to do a completely different project in the same timeframe if she wants.
She pretty much confirmed in a new interview that there won’t be a reunion. She said she read on social media people saying she should leave it alone so why do more when people aren’t asking for it. Unless she’s keeping it a surprise or something.

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Old 2019.05.30, 10:15 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by shirasagi View Post
@Lena-chan, who is that chick? I was just really confused by that video, haha.
Her name is Tetê Espíndola
that song in the video I posted was her only hit
and it was HUUUGE, I remember listening to it in my mother's cassette tapes
Even now I still sing this song everytime I go to a Karaoke bar in Brazil.
And her music is actually pretty good (especially if you like Kate Bush)
listen to the first two songs of this album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzHkMNXX-lg
Apparently she is still active nowadays (I just discovered this O.õ), and still sounds good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwFTVJemnKM
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Old 2019.05.31, 05:16 AM   #130
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So I read that Shiina Ringo is penning a new song for Maaya Sakamoto for some new anime, comes out in July. Ok, might be good, check.

It's got SOIL AND PIMP SESSIONS involved. Ok, double check. It's been a while, maybe it's what she needs.

And then I find the sample.

Maaya Sakamoto Ringo Song


Aaaand... it's practically the same song. Again. How many times, Ringo? HOW MANY TIMES!
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