The long overdue Seiko Oomori thread - Page 64

FadedSun · 2015.01.29, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

It's a dark as fuck song is my point. It's Suki Suki Daisuki for our modern times. It's genius.

Why is it genius? Dark lyrics have been masked by poppy, upbeat melodies for some time. Not trying to downplay the lyrics or the song or anything.

deadgrandma · 2015.01.29, 07:23 PM

Hmm, yes, on a western pop basis this is true.

Not quite so much in the Japanese idol scene (granted this seems to be changing quite rapidly nowadays, there's an 'anti idol group' popping up every month it seems)- I'm not saying Oomori is the only one that does it, but she's certainly one of the most convincing when she does. There's no overt sense of being 'shocking' for the sake of it (than say in acts such as BiS for example) in her music. She writes what she feels and this is the strongest weapon of them all.

It is quite a balancing act to get right- if you do it too blatant you're gonna come off gimicky like BABYMETAL. If you underdo it you're gonna come off like MCZ (who I still have a soft spot for, albeit they're growing less and less interesting with each successive release). Do it right and you've hit right where it hurts.

Suki Suki Daisuki is still the prime example of this for me. Oomori is *this* close to reaching that level with Sennou it's actually quite exhausting to me! But I can't think of anyone else who has come this close in my entire collection. It's pretty damn impressive to me.

Also, on a quick sidenote: I believe if Paipaikademi plays it just right, she might be a serious contender too.

Ah this Suki Suki Daisuki talk made me go an play it. Makes me feel sad knowing there's all these idol fans that have never heard this.

TurtleFu · 2015.01.31, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by FadedSun

Why is it genius? Dark lyrics have been masked by poppy, upbeat melodies for some time. Not trying to downplay the lyrics or the song or anything.

I don't think Nostalgic J-Pop is a song with dark lyrics and poppy, upbeat melody.

Inseu · 2015.01.31, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

It's a dark as fuck song is my point. It's Suki Suki Daisuki for our modern times. It's genius.

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

I don't think Nostalgic J-Pop is a song with dark lyrics and poppy, upbeat melody.

Ethnomusicology students are fickle as fuck in their opinions.

FadedSun · 2015.01.31, 09:34 AM

Besides being nitpick-y about what I was saying, I think you got the idea, Turtle. Inseu sort of called you out on it already, but you likened it to Suki Suki Daisuki, which is indeed a pop song with dark lyrics. My whole point is that Nostalgic J-Pop, if you're not paying attention to the lyrics, just sounds like a sweet song, yes?

TurtleFu · 2015.02.01, 04:56 AM

No, that's not the point. And I wasn't being nitpicky. Let me try to explain myself better, I'm not being contradictory I just think it's more complex than "dark lyrics/upbeat melody"
Nostalgic J-Pop isn't an upbeat song, so your point doesn't even make sense. I think you misunderstood why I compared it to Suki Suki Daisuki. I don't think it sounds like a sweet song if you don't listen to the lyrics? That's why I asked DG about the emotions in the song, because I was trying to point out that it's a sad song regardless of lyrics.

There are a lot of different types of lyrics, lyrics that are "macro" and talk about larger issues, lyrics that tell stories, lyrics that are "micro" and talk about the singer's emotions, or lyrics made just to fit the sound of the song (aka nonsense bullshit lyrics like most idol lyrics, and most Western pop lyrics as well). The best lyrics have multiple layers, and as DG even said, Nostlagic J-Pop's lyrics are layered. Because it DOES sound like a sad song, because it is a sad song.
With idol ballads, typically the singer doesn't write the lyrics, so they attempt to convey the emotions of the song the best they can. But at the same time, idols typically have restrictive dating lives and/or are very young, so it's ironic that they sing songs about heartbreak while likely never experiencing it themselves.
But Omori wrote these lyrics. Most likely, Nostlagic J-Pop is about an actual experience she had (you can tell because of the rather specific parts of the lyrics). So in one sense, it's a "micro" song, about Omori's feelings, and her voice perfectly conveys that this is an intimate song, it's about her.
At the same time, the music is clearly in the tradition of idol ballads, right? So then you have the other layer of Omori doing a traditional idol ballad, but actually singing about her experiences.
And then you have the added layer about the extremely depressing lyrics, which have a sense of almost grotesqueness. This is characteristic of Omori, to have really biting or sarcastic lyrics that just seem devastating. An idol singing about suicide is unusual, a singer-songwriter is not.
Finally, you have the "meta" viewpoint, as DG pointed out, the entire song is ALSO a commentary on the idol industry! That's why it's called Nostalgic J-Pop!
So it's a gross simplification to say it's just a poppy song with dark lyrics, because comparing it to something like, say "Pumped Up Kicks" kind of does it injustice. Yes, lots of pop musicians write dark lyrics, a lot of times it's just to get controversial buzz for their songs. But I don't think Omori writes dark lyrics just for buzz, because they are also very personal.

Suki Suki Daisuki is in a similar vein, it's not just a poppy song with dark lyrics, the lyrics have tons of layers to them, and the way that they interact with the music enhances their meaning.
Do you understand what I'm trying to say now?

Inseu · 2015.02.01, 11:03 AM

You don't convince me Nostalgic J-pop is musically genius, as you said it's a traditional idol ballad. It is a good song, but not as memorable as something like U Can't Touch This.

Your logic is flawed as shown in the analogy below:

Nostlagic J-Pop's lyrics are layered, layered lyrics are the best lyrics.
Nostlagic J-Pop is a traditional idol ballad but at the same time very personal.
Nostlagic J-Pop has extremely depressing lyrics.
Nostlagic J-Pop is a commentary on the idol industry.
Nostlagic J-Pop is genius.

A turtle has a shield, a reptile with a shield is the best reptile.
A turtle is reptile but at the same time moves very slowly.
A turtle has a very hard shield.
A turtle is a powerful totem for protection.
A turtle is genius.

deadgrandma · 2015.02.01, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Inseu

You don't convince me Nostalgic J-pop is musically genius, as you said it's a traditional idol ballad. It is a good song, but not as memorable as something like U Can't Touch This.

Your logic is flawed as shown in the analogy below:

Nostlagic J-Pop's lyrics are layered, layered lyrics are the best lyrics.
Nostlagic J-Pop is a traditional idol ballad but at the same time very personal.
Nostlagic J-Pop has extremely depressing lyrics.
Nostlagic J-Pop is a commentary on the idol industry.
Nostlagic J-Pop is genius.

A turtle has a shield, a reptile with a shield is the best reptile.
A turtle is reptile but at the same time moves very slowly.
A turtle has a very hard shield.
A turtle is a powerful totem for protection.
A turtle is genius.

I'm sorry, although I appreciate your trolling most of the time, this one was pretty painful/spiteful to read

Plus I have no idea what your point is except that you don't like turtlefu (I'm sure the feelings mutual though) :-p

@turtlefu: the main difference between Nostalgic Jpop and Suki Suki Daisuki is that with SSD you don't need lyrics/need to know what Togawa is about (hence why I don't think Oomori is quite on Togawa's level... yet) to know that it's sinister as fuck. You just need to hear them first few music bars and you know shit is on.

FadedSun · 2015.02.01, 05:07 PM

@Turtle

Yes, you clarified your opinion and thoughts much better now! Like I said when I wrote my original post, I wasn't trying to demean the song or the lyrics. I was speaking quite generally and wouldn't go out of my way to compare Nostalgic J-Pop to some lame pop song. I don't like to get into too many details these days on forums since I'm quite busy, so my apologies there.

Inseu · 2015.02.01, 05:50 PM

My point is Nostalgic J-Pop is musically pale and weak compare to Suki Suki Daisuki, and over-analyzing the lyrics doesn't prove anything. Suki Suki Daisuki, Queen of Kabuki, and Doping Noise Kiss Kiss are genius because the music is very powerful and unique, not because of their lyrics, whereas Nostalgic J-pop is as Turtlefu pointed out a traditional idol ballad. Musically closest thing to Suki Suki Daisuki is the recent Kekeke by Kayoko Yoshizawa.

2015.01.29, 07:23 PM	#632
deadgrandma Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,764	Hmm, yes, on a western pop basis this is true. Not quite so much in the Japanese idol scene (granted this seems to be changing quite rapidly nowadays, there's an 'anti idol group' popping up every month it seems)- I'm not saying Oomori is the only one that does it, but she's certainly one of the most convincing when she does. There's no overt sense of being 'shocking' for the sake of it (than say in acts such as BiS for example) in her music. She writes what she feels and this is the strongest weapon of them all. It is quite a balancing act to get right- if you do it too blatant you're gonna come off gimicky like BABYMETAL. If you underdo it you're gonna come off like MCZ (who I still have a soft spot for, albeit they're growing less and less interesting with each successive release). Do it right and you've hit right where it hurts. Suki Suki Daisuki is still the prime example of this for me. Oomori is this close to reaching that level with Sennou it's actually quite exhausting to me! But I can't think of anyone else who has come this close in my entire collection. It's pretty damn impressive to me. Also, on a quick sidenote: I believe if Paipaikademi plays it just right, she might be a serious contender too. Ah this Suki Suki Daisuki talk made me go an play it. Makes me feel sad knowing there's all these idol fans that have never heard this. __________________ Disco! Life is dead Last edited by deadgrandma : 2015.01.29 at 07:46 PM.

2015.02.01, 04:56 AM	#636
TurtleFu Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Honolulu Posts: 1,592	No, that's not the point. And I wasn't being nitpicky. Let me try to explain myself better, I'm not being contradictory I just think it's more complex than "dark lyrics/upbeat melody" Nostalgic J-Pop isn't an upbeat song, so your point doesn't even make sense. I think you misunderstood why I compared it to Suki Suki Daisuki. I don't think it sounds like a sweet song if you don't listen to the lyrics? That's why I asked DG about the emotions in the song, because I was trying to point out that it's a sad song regardless of lyrics. There are a lot of different types of lyrics, lyrics that are "macro" and talk about larger issues, lyrics that tell stories, lyrics that are "micro" and talk about the singer's emotions, or lyrics made just to fit the sound of the song (aka nonsense bullshit lyrics like most idol lyrics, and most Western pop lyrics as well). The best lyrics have multiple layers, and as DG even said, Nostlagic J-Pop's lyrics are layered. Because it DOES sound like a sad song, because it is a sad song. With idol ballads, typically the singer doesn't write the lyrics, so they attempt to convey the emotions of the song the best they can. But at the same time, idols typically have restrictive dating lives and/or are very young, so it's ironic that they sing songs about heartbreak while likely never experiencing it themselves. But Omori wrote these lyrics. Most likely, Nostlagic J-Pop is about an actual experience she had (you can tell because of the rather specific parts of the lyrics). So in one sense, it's a "micro" song, about Omori's feelings, and her voice perfectly conveys that this is an intimate song, it's about her. At the same time, the music is clearly in the tradition of idol ballads, right? So then you have the other layer of Omori doing a traditional idol ballad, but actually singing about her experiences. And then you have the added layer about the extremely depressing lyrics, which have a sense of almost grotesqueness. This is characteristic of Omori, to have really biting or sarcastic lyrics that just seem devastating. An idol singing about suicide is unusual, a singer-songwriter is not. Finally, you have the "meta" viewpoint, as DG pointed out, the entire song is ALSO a commentary on the idol industry! That's why it's called Nostalgic J-Pop! So it's a gross simplification to say it's just a poppy song with dark lyrics, because comparing it to something like, say "Pumped Up Kicks" kind of does it injustice. Yes, lots of pop musicians write dark lyrics, a lot of times it's just to get controversial buzz for their songs. But I don't think Omori writes dark lyrics just for buzz, because they are also very personal. Suki Suki Daisuki is in a similar vein, it's not just a poppy song with dark lyrics, the lyrics have tons of layers to them, and the way that they interact with the music enhances their meaning. Do you understand what I'm trying to say now? Last edited by TurtleFu : 2015.02.01 at 08:02 AM.

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2015.01.31, 09:34 AM	#635
FadedSun Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Boston Posts: 703	Besides being nitpick-y about what I was saying, I think you got the idea, Turtle. Inseu sort of called you out on it already, but you likened it to Suki Suki Daisuki, which is indeed a pop song with dark lyrics. My whole point is that Nostalgic J-Pop, if you're not paying attention to the lyrics, just sounds like a sweet song, yes?

2015.02.01, 11:03 AM	#637
Inseu Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,707	You don't convince me Nostalgic J-pop is musically genius, as you said it's a traditional idol ballad. It is a good song, but not as memorable as something like U Can't Touch This. Your logic is flawed as shown in the analogy below: Nostlagic J-Pop's lyrics are layered, layered lyrics are the best lyrics. Nostlagic J-Pop is a traditional idol ballad but at the same time very personal. Nostlagic J-Pop has extremely depressing lyrics. Nostlagic J-Pop is a commentary on the idol industry. Nostlagic J-Pop is genius. A turtle has a shield, a reptile with a shield is the best reptile. A turtle is reptile but at the same time moves very slowly. A turtle has a very hard shield. A turtle is a powerful totem for protection. A turtle is genius.

2015.02.01, 05:07 PM	#639
FadedSun Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Boston Posts: 703	@Turtle Yes, you clarified your opinion and thoughts much better now! Like I said when I wrote my original post, I wasn't trying to demean the song or the lyrics. I was speaking quite generally and wouldn't go out of my way to compare Nostalgic J-Pop to some lame pop song. I don't like to get into too many details these days on forums since I'm quite busy, so my apologies there.

2015.02.01, 05:50 PM	#640
Inseu Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,707	My point is Nostalgic J-Pop is musically pale and weak compare to Suki Suki Daisuki, and over-analyzing the lyrics doesn't prove anything. Suki Suki Daisuki, Queen of Kabuki, and Doping Noise Kiss Kiss are genius because the music is very powerful and unique, not because of their lyrics, whereas Nostalgic J-pop is as Turtlefu pointed out a traditional idol ballad. Musically closest thing to Suki Suki Daisuki is the recent Kekeke by Kayoko Yoshizawa.