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Old 2016.01.02, 12:32 PM   #1601
zeroryouko
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Originally Posted by fernan1234 View Post
Isn't this too much projecting? Unlike people in "advanced" Western cultures people in Japan and elsewhere don't really think much about "identity" issues and even gendering and queering. People tend to have a "simpler" mindset. I bet she simply thought the dance "looked cool". Same with the vogue/Aya and Bambi. SR likes looking cool and doing cool stuff, and she's damn good at it.
Except that on many previous occasions, SR has demonstrated that she *does* think about her identity. Maybe that makes her different from the rest of Japan, but so what if it does?

And you can bet that even if Ringo doesn't think that way, Aya and Bambi certainly have been forced to confront the issue of *their* identity, and they undoubtedly had a large hand in the choreography.

The major difficulty with this interpretation, IMO, is the overt commercialism of the song, and the vocoder. Those elements make it difficult to take the performance seriously.
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Old 2016.01.02, 03:36 PM   #1602
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What I'm finding most interesting here, is the lengths people are going to defend this stuff. It reminds me of a younger me, when everyone was laying into stuff like Onna no ka wa daredemo or Tengoku e Youkoso...

However, in hindsight, I feel a little less crazy about it, because at least she wasn't lip syncing back then :-p
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Old 2016.01.02, 06:47 PM   #1603
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^ yea kinda like the lengths people go to defending, say, Oomori Seiko.

For me it was just a cool looking performance so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 2016.01.02, 07:20 PM   #1604
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I don't think anyone's defending the lip-syncing...
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Old 2016.01.02, 07:46 PM   #1605
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I don't know why anyone would feel any particular way about it. This is clearly some silly Top of the Pops shit (or whatever equivalent you guys have in your respective countries) and Ringo almost certainly hasn't given it a second thought since she got in her car and went home. Save the vitriol and deeper analysis for when a mimed performance shows up on Expo 15.
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Old 2016.01.02, 08:10 PM   #1606
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First of all,
Originally Posted by fernan1234 View Post
Isn't this too much projecting?
No. I also don't think you know what that word means...
Originally Posted by fernan1234 View Post
Unlike people in "advanced" Western cultures people in Japan and elsewhere don't really think much about "identity" issues and even gendering and queering. People tend to have a "simpler" mindset.
Have you heard of an album called "Shouso Strip" which has a song called "Identity" on it? It was written by a woman named Shiina Ringo and is about experiencing an existential crisis where she questions many things about her identity (hence the title). The music video features a famous Japanese woman dressing up in both traditional Western and Eastern garb, being dragged by horse.

Also, you are aware of the many feminist and queer activists in Japan, the many Japanese periodicals dedicated to gender issues, or the many Japanese universities that have gender and women studies programs, aren't you? In fact, in 1999, Ringo did a live tour of women's colleges exclusively. So yes, Ringo is aware of her gender and her national identity. If you think it too "Western" of her to be contemplating such matters, maybe you'd be content with Ringo not also making Western-style pop music and commit herself to the shamisen?

Originally Posted by fernan1234 View Post
I bet she simply thought the dance "looked cool". Same with the vogue/Aya and Bambi. SR likes looking cool and doing cool stuff, and she's damn good at it.
Keep in mind we're talking about a woman who managed to name-drop Montesquieu (of all people) in one of her most blatantly poppy songs, much less what she sings about at her most avant-garde. So no, Ringo is not averse to historical, philosophical, or high art references.
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Old 2016.01.03, 08:17 AM   #1607
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Ringo is obviously really upping her performance game but is letting strong vocals and good songwriting take a backseat. I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I commend the choreography and the work put into it and Ringo DOES show that she is a talented dancer. But saying Ringo's a talented dancer is probably the most backhanded compliment you can give her lately, isn't it? Nobody went to a Ringo show because they wanted to see Step Up live. We all know who Ringo was in her prime and this ain't it.

It's not an easy pill to swallow either. There's a reason people don't post on these forums much anymore, myself included. It's because the old fans feel like they're being left behind. I think a lot of people expected another return to form after Jihen disbanded but instead we've gotten more songs written for other artists and whatever the hell that auto-tune thing that deadgrandma keeps calling the Coke song is.

I got into Ringo around 2007. When I first came to this forum, it was right after Variety was released and OSCA and Killer Tune were in full swing. I adored those songs at the time and got really into them. Hell, I'll still defend them against anybody. I never stopped enjoying those songs no matter how much Jihad, Maou, or anyone else crapped on them. And I bet deadgrandma is the same way with some of the songs released in that era. We were the Jihen Generation of Ringo fans. There was no "Ringo before Jihen" for us. Ringo was always part of Jihen. A lot of us, like myself, didn't even see Phase 1 happen in real time. So to me the music was all of the same era. It was all good music. I used to roll my eyes when Jihad would be all "Not my Ringo" because I was enjoying her output. I was aware of her changing as an artist and doing different styles of music with Jihen but rather than thinking of her changing her style to something I didn't like I saw her as a versatile artist at the time. "Wow, the same woman who wrote this wrote this one too?? She's talented!" and kept enjoying what she was putting out. Meanwhile Maou, justriiingo, Tokyo Jihad, and a lot of others on this forum were starting to part ways with Ringo. Not with the community. But definitely with Ringo.

Now people like me and deadgrandma have some years behind us as Ringo fans. We've invested some time into her as an artist and have watched her grow since the late 2000's like many of the other users on this forum before us had. Now we have greater context. This isn't one song in a sea of many songs to discover. This is her latest song. Or one of them. To be honest, I don't really know anymore. I haven't listened to Sunny. And that says a lot I think. It's the first Ringo release I haven't nabbed or at least tried to listen to.

I never thought I'd be in this position. But I can't defend Ringo lip-syncing a badly auto-tuned song while doing a choreographed dance. It's just not my Ringo.
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Old 2016.01.03, 12:25 PM   #1608
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The vocoder thing (I'm still not absolutely convinced that it was in fact lip sync) is a blow to her artistic integrity for sure (and let me be clear - I absolutely *LOATHE* it), but so far it's only one song - one performance, even. Time will tell where she goes with it. I don't think the vocoder is going to be a major, permanent thing.

I *was* a fan before Jihen. When I first heard KSK after listening to MM and SS, I was bewildered. When she started Jihen, I disliked that she had gone a different musical direction after KSK. When she released HF, it seemed like she was now just recycling older material, and when Jihen released Variety, my feeling of betrayal was compounded in that she seemed to be giving creative control over to the other members of her band. When Expo 08 came out, I was saddened by the fact that she seemed to have lost her previous voice. But all that is in the past and, with time, I came to appreciate all of her output.

I think the upgraded performance aesthetic is probably here to stay, at least for a while, and I think in a few years when she has polished it more, we'll look back at this, smile, and note that this was where it all began.

No, she's not my Ringo - but then, she never was to begin with.
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Old 2016.01.03, 04:50 PM   #1609
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Osiris gets it.

Thankyou. I'm glad I'm not the sole person feeling this way.

Even back in the late Jihen days, never did I see myself trying to clutch to straws of what remained of the Ringo I loved. When Jihen disbanded, I was excited to see her go back to being SHIINA FUCKIN' RINGO. Never did I expect to see her ONLY making songs on commission (a few here and there, sure, why not, everyone needs a bit of cash- but everything??? THE FUCK MAN). And never, ever did I expect to see her lip synching on Kouhaku.

If you can appreciate her for performance and visuals only, fair enough, hats off to you. But you can't HEAR them visuals when you are listening to her music. I remember when she had a brilliant balance of visual/performance AND music. Now its all visual. This doesn't really matter to me personally, I couldn't give a crap. If the music isn't there to hold it all together, then what's the point?
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Old 2016.01.03, 04:56 PM   #1610
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I've invested just as much time (if not more) into her career and I still like what she's putting out, so......

I guess you like what you like and you don't like what you don't.

Re: Lip syncing; I don't think she's even making an effort to disguise the fact that she's lip-syncing. It's kind of like all your Tommy february6 performances. They are all a deliberate attempt at being kitsch/pastiche. Which is ok. I will start getting concerned if she starts lip-syncing something like Tadashii machi or Marusadi.

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