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Old 2011.10.26, 03:44 PM   #781
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@Maou
But that's my point! By saying that KZK is only "better" because of its arrangement, you are disregarding the arrangements, almost as if they are something "extra" to the songs. While I agree now that most songs on KZK are still within the verse-chorus song structure, the arrangements show a musical depth and complexity that hasn't been reproduced in Shiina's work. Furthermore, I agree that the intro's to certain tracks are unnecessary (I mostly listen to HF Poltergeist because it lacks the intro), when I'm talking about arrangements I mean things like Shuukyou, Doppelganger, Meisai, Kuki, Yattsuke Shigoto, Ishiki, and Souretsu. Structurally, most of them are verse-chorus, but in terms of arrangements they are very complex.
And yet you say KZK is overrated because of its arrangements, which to me is like saying an album should not be judged based on the arrangements ( or the arrangements should be disregarded when judging the quality of a song).
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Old 2011.10.26, 05:36 PM   #782
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I like how we both think the other is proving the point for us. I sit here and snicker at the fact that you think anything on KSK has more depth than Izonshou or Suberidai. Almost lol when you use Meisai as an example of arrangement depths she had never reached before.

Adding some violins and shit to BB Queen in KSK fashion wouldn't save it from being a terrible song. Re-arranging it is like putting an ugly person in nice clothing. You still have an ugly person inside the pretty wrapper.
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Old 2011.10.26, 05:59 PM   #783
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Let's keep in mind Souretsu almost ended up on MM with a pop-rock arrangement. But at the same time, it didn't. Even though it seems instinctive to say that the base composition is easily what is most important, much of what makes a composition great is it's usage of a pre-established musical vocabulary of rhythms, chords, melodic shapes, and so on. Arrangement also appeals to a kind of musical vocabulary, but it tends to be more visual (i.e. what imagery we associate with the instruments, the texture or "flavor" of the song, cultural referencing, and so on). This is actually a very difficult debate to settle and has been around for probably hundreds of years: is a "song" what is on paper - the melody, the concepts, the unique ideological niche a piece fills - or is it a performance - the actual manifestation, the indescribable textures, and so on?
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Old 2011.10.26, 06:05 PM   #784
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Does anybody value my posts when it takes me 500 words to say what Maou could've said in 150? Does my more highly-produced delivery add value to my message for anyone who isn't a college instructor assigning me to write an essay? If not, then how does musical talking-out-of-assedness add enough value to KZK for people to praise the album as Shiina Ringo's #1?

At least the pro-KZK folks here have a consistent ideology (on Form versus Function) - if they also take Apple products seriously. There's no debating with a hypocrite.
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Old 2011.10.26, 06:08 PM   #785
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> implying there's anti-KZK folks? Well I'll be damned.

I like KZK.
It is a good album, not overrated, I can understand the love. It is the jpop album for convincing people scared of jpop that it's not all Morning Musume.

Sounds good, flows good, good songs, works as a whole.

If you want single jingle then MM and SS is for you.

I like single jingle.

Fuck.

Train of thought has turned into gibberish much like this thread.
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Old 2011.10.26, 07:11 PM   #786
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Equating KZK with jpop is all sorts of wrong
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Old 2011.10.26, 11:26 PM   #787
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Yattsuke Shigoto sounds like it's "using" J-pop.

Anyway I do think KZK is the least hooky in its compositions, MM is most in the "real world" so to speak (possibly also lyrically), SS is in the middle and you can pick your favourite flavour. One is blue, the next one is pink and the one after that is black. All three are poppy as hell, and have extremely accomplished songwriting.

KZK doesn't gain at all by being separated out from the fun, quirky pop of its precursors and being grouped with HF or SG (and I have read nu-fans that do that) because that would amplify its arguable "flaws", i.e. it's possibly a little cold, overbearing in it's loud-soft transitions, and a bit "too much" occasionally. All of which I was actually happily oblivious to before reading other people's opinions on the album.

In other words, KZK is wonderful but sensitive to a certain type of overpraise that colours its interpretation. Concentrate on its less "showy" side, its use of samples, beats and found sounds, the string quartets as much as its orchestras, the bits that seem to connect to Mr Wonderful and Komori Uta on UM rather than HF, and it's all the better IMO.

Originally Posted by deadgrandma View Post
KSK is favored subliminally cause it won't/hasn't dated as quickly as the others cept SG which can't date/isn't favoured cause it's already made to sound oldies (which is totally my bag baby).

Well that's my bullshit theory anyway.

Lots of people are put off by the SJDAJGKJGKJKGJADJGJ production of SS too. I've heard many newer fans who got in from KSK say MM is too pop.

I'm gonna leave TJ albums out of this cause they're not relevant to what I'm trying to say, though I cannot articulate what I mean properly.
I have to say, I don't get this post. MM and SS are remarkable in that they haven't dated at all, in that even I'll admit some music from then sounds of its time and I'm a 90s guy. They could have come out at any point in the last 15 years, and any point in the next.

Also does the production on SS really put anyone off? That kind of compression is very familiar to pop, rock, techno and drum and bass. The drums, strings and sitars are distorted (Yame ni Furu Ame) but that's an integral part of the sound she was going for. I'm just interpreting "SJDAJGKJGKJKGJADJGJ" here
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Old 2011.10.27, 01:38 AM   #788
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Shiina Ringo makes Japanese Pop music. I am not sure why some people find it so hard to accept that fact. It's almost as if Jpop were some sort of dirty word that instantaneously negates the quality of any music.
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Old 2011.10.27, 06:47 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by gekokujyo View Post
Shiina Ringo makes Japanese Pop music. I am not sure why some people find it so hard to accept that fact. It's almost as if Jpop were some sort of dirty word that instantaneously negates the quality of any music.
Even Ringo denies she makes Jpop music. LOL
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Old 2011.10.27, 07:34 AM   #790
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Would you call Nick Cave pop music? Elvis Costello? Edith Piaf? Sex Pistols? Ella Fitzgerald? Just because music is "popular" doesn't mean it is "pop" genre. Some of her songs are pop, yes. But you would have to be lying to call Shuukyou pop.

@Maou
And I find it ridiculous how you can't admit Meisai is musically complex, just because Suberidai is possibly just as complex (which I disagree about)
I guess I can understand not thinking KZK is her best album. After all, your criticisms of emotional detachment and overbearing arrangements are perfectly valid. But it is still a pretty significant departure from her previous works.
Yes, there are some songs that are so fundamentally bad that an inspired arrangement can't fix them. But that doesn't mean ALL arrangements are simply "clothes" put on the song.

@Glath
I really hope you aren't calling me a hypocrite.
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