Ringo Shiina project I'm trying to start

[oasis_heart3]

But I DID say that I was participating in the project. I even said it in the first post. xD

You somhow missed this part, which was mentioned right before I asked for help:

I’ve thought about doing this project for a while now, and I’ve written just over 40 lyrics since the beginning of the year. (^^) I even came up with a name for the project…but the only problems are:

Your confusion is probably my fault, though. I tried to keep my main post as simple as possible (because the more text that's used, the easier it is for people to get confused and/or misinterpret something)...but I probably still made my post too long. And I probably left some vital things out, like the fact that I'm the one who'll build/maintain the site. ^^;;

But yeah, I'm definitely working in the project. That would just...be kinda stupid/lazy/selfish if I didn't. ^^;

[Glathannus]

I think the biggest problem of being "visionary-only" is that you have no leverage to judge the contributions of others. Basically if you aren't bringing anything to the table, you shouldn't be sitting at it with your critiquing and your bargaining. The predicament is even worse if you don't understand the spectrums of quality in each field of contribution, meaning you have a high chance of over or underestimating the value of other peoples' work, and if people don't believe you can judge their work properly, why would they want to present it to you? Like who do you think you are, that we should have to prove anything to you?

Those were my initial concerns upon seeing this thread, and I don't blame other people for feeling somewhat insulted. However, I do try and broaden my views by asking myself "What are the actual biggest problems here (not necessarily the ones that make me angry), what are the possible solutions, and how attainable are those solutions?".

And upon pondering that, I realized that the whole situation of a self-proclaimed visionary being in any position to judge anyone, is the least among the problems here. The bigger problem is that it's unrealistic to presume that anywhere near all the performers are going to have the technical equipment and expertise to do decent quality recordings. Not only are the recordings mostly going to be bad quality, but they're not even going to be recorded at the same volume levels or in the same kind of room with consistent acoustics, and whoever is mixing everything together, is going to have to stretch some already terrible-sounding things to make all the parts fit together. Or worse yet, when you're dealing with fans scattered across the world, and not a crew of professionals in one place, how the hell do you keep everyone's performances in sync?

In order to get an even remotely-decent final mix, and assuming that everyone is cleverly coordinating, there is so much wasted money for every individual crew member to have their own separate recording/production gear, rather than having all the equipment in one place where everyone takes turns. And without a sound engineer on standby in each performer's home, whoever is doing the mixing is going to have to be middle management and get on everyone's ass about how to do things properly, because one weak link in the chain will fuck it all up, especially when it comes to syncing.

The only way this project is going to work, is if one person makes their own MIDIs. You don't want to be taking official MIDIs or official karaoke tracks because then you're committing copyright infringment (or more levels of it) that way. That's not the way you want to get "noticed". You have to do everything from scratch, and not only that, but probably do each of the songs on a different key too (as much as that might be sacrilege), just to be safe.

Different Music Key + Different Lyrics = 100% Legal

It might not be a bad idea to buy the MIDIs, then swap out the soundbanks, bump everything up or down one key, then layer some singing ontop of it. That is the most feasible approach I can imagine. Then the only syncing problem you could possibly have is between the vocalist and the MIDI - a likely problem if the vocalist is moody enough at emulating Ringo, because emotional people are generally not technical people. Odds are someone else who could manage the vocalist properly, isn't in anywhere the same location. And the more the vocalist can manage themselves, the less likely they are to be able to properly perform the part. You see where I'm going with this?

If I could find the time, I could get all the sound-related mumbo-jumbo taken care of locally. Get all the MIDIs created/cannabolized/etc., pay a local instrumentalist or two and manage them properly during recording time (they wouldn't be fans but they'd get the job done), throw in a few piano performances of my own, hook up with and properly manage a local vocalist (who also won't be a fan but could also get the job done), mix everything together, etc.. Basically everything but the lyrics. I would do all of that because I'm a perfectionist, otherwise if I did only a fraction of that, I would feel like I'm wasting my time, even if it's less time spent, because fans across the world are simply NOT going to have their shit together (as a team) when it comes to the music.

So say I tackled all those huge problems.
That brings me to the question of, what exactly would I need an "agitator" for? It's not like I haven't thought of putting together Shiina Ringo covers before - I've simply never given two shits about translation. Actually I was thinking more of instrumentals, you know, where not only is the voice gone, but where the instruments pitch in more, to make up for that. Not exactly the kind of package that any other "producer" could steal and slap together with vocals, though that's not my primary goal - it's just a bonus.

The reason I haven't started this yet (aside from not having the time) is because it takes money and it's not time-crucial, while collecting rare Shiina Ringo products also costs money (leaving me with none left to initiate this project) and is time-crucial. I can make covers later, and no matter how long I wait, they won't be any worse in a year from now, than if I made them tomorrow. But with rare collectibles, they'll only get more expensive, the longer I wait. I'm just glad the Shiina Ringo franchise is nowhere near as bloated as JPop or Visual-Kei, otherwise it would be too intimidating to catch every Yahoo! Japan Auction like they were Pocket Monsters (that's what the Japanese call them - and it's what you should call them too - although I am not a fan).

[golem09]

@oasis_heart3

Well, after all, I don't take all this too serious. That's the reason why I didn't started flaming right off the bat. Instead I just inserted a small inside joke^^

[oasis_heart3]

@Glathannus: I hear what you're saying, but considering that I don't know any people in real life who can help me, this is my only option. I've seen other people (who only know each other online) work together successfully, so it can and does work. There is a way it can work out.

And what you said about the MIDIs is also what I've been thinking about (except for the pitch thing; I didn't think about altering it at all). I actually did want some people to try and make the MIDIs from scratch (not only because it would feel more "genuine" that way, but also because a lot of MIDIs that I've heard online just don't sound that great...or at least, not accurate with the actual songs.)

But I know that asking people to make MIDIs might be kind of hard (mostly because it'd be time consuming), so that's why I had three options available:

1. Someone makes the MIDIs from scratch.

-if that doesn't work, then-

2. Someone helps me find some MIDIs (adrian & Jonny said they could help out; and if some of the songs they give me aren't super accurate, then I'd need someone to help me buy some MIDIs from ClubDAM.)

-if that doesn't work, then-

3. Someone "makes" karaoke from the original MP3 files. Usually, these files sound like crap (it's like Ringo KNEW someone would forge a karaoke, and she made her songs deliberately sound crappy if someone attempted that. ><; )...BUT I've heard that sometimes you actually CAN make a decent karaoke this way. Usually though, it does involve expensive equipment, but not always...

Anyway, I really do appreciate your and golem09's comments. I definitely need doses of reality when it comes to this project, and you guys not only make me think and plan harder for this project, but you also REALLY make me want to give my all (not that I wasn't going to do that anyway. =) So I appreciate your insightful (although harsh at times) commentary.

PS: If you ever do decide to help with this project Glathannus, I'd greatly appreciate it. (^^) But if not, then I will definitely keep everything you said in perspective.

[kanzaki]

Just wanna say i was really impressed by the translation. Comparable to (if not better than) ringo's work. Can i see more

[oasis_heart3]

You really think so? (^^) Thank you so much!!! <3

I'm at school right now (so I don't have access to anymore songs, sadly. ><; ), but when I go home in a few hours, I'll post part of "Meisai". (I just worked on it yesterday, and I really like how it turned out. =)

[oasis_heart3]

Here's part of "Meisai", like I promised. And I've also posted part of "Toki ga Bousou Suru" as well. (:

"Meisai" - The Original vs. My Version (HTML page)

"Toki ga Bousou Suru" - The Original vs. My Version (HTML page)


Also, I remembered something else that I'm going to do in the project, but I forgot to tell everyone in this thread. ^^;;

Sometimes when I write these songs, there are issues regarding the rhythm (ie: if my lyrics are a bit too long, then things have to be said faster in certain places, and if the lyrics are a bit too short, then things have to be said slower, etc). "Meisai" is an example of such a song (because this line -- "'Cuz things just aren't the same" -- needs to be said a bit fast, in order to keep up with the rhythm of the original song).

Anyway...because of this issue, I AM going to sing demo versions for all of the songs (that way, the singers will know how the rhythm works). So...despite my crappy voice, I WILL be "singing" the songs. (^^) But like I said, I forgot to mention that earlier....and I apologize. x_x;;

And PS: Does anyone know how I can get those "Heisei Fuzoku" instrumentals? I missed the deadline for that (plus I don't have a Japanese credit card anyway. ><;; )

[Jer]

This idea is laughable to me. You want to create a high-quality type of "cover band" but you have no idea and no means to do so yourself. You don't even know anyone personally or even bother to try to look for them on your own time so you posted this on the internet hoping that a bunch of skilled singers, musicians, and mixers/encoders would come help your project for free. Then you start to question THEIR skill and whether they'd be able to help you when you yourself have no skill? And you claim YOU'RE offended when they start to question you? Wow.

You say in one post it won't be time consuming and in another that you want to cover ALL the songs. You don't even translate or write the lyrics; you just edit other peoples' translations to be more fluent to the english language. I'm amazed people like golem09 and Glathannus have even been this patient in explaining how to go about things to you...

What I suggest is this: Go out and buy an instrument. Learn to play it. Learn to write your OWN stuff, and not copy other peoples' songs because it'll most likely get you in trouble. It's alright to have a muse or ten, but bring your own to the table. Go out OFFLINE and find some other musicians with similar taste and style to you, and form a band if you're serious. I kind of doubt that, from the way you're going about this. You can't just say "I'm a student, I'm busy and have no job, no skill, no time, and no money." You're not even offering incentive (i.e. $$$) to the people you're trying to get to work bust their ass for you. It just doesn't work that way.

[Kasanagi]

^ What he said...

You can get your MIDI's and all, but I don't see anyone with the talent and skills you demand will do anything for you without any incentives, and it don't sound like you will give any creative control to any one joining your project, which is in itself an incentive that some would join a band for.

When you started translating those lyrics, you've essentially altered the songs from how its intended, you might as well make more leeway to it; learn guitar and turn songs into acoustic numbers, get some singing lessons done and do your own vocal, mix your own tracks etc. You can do all this in your garage without any ones help.

And if you are doing this in your garage, sticking egg cantons on the wall DOES NOT make your garage sound proof...

[oasis_heart3]

I was gonna post this part last, but I REALLY think I should say it first: it seems like you didn't bother to read this ENTIRE thread. Because if you did, I think you'd see that I've pretty much reached an understanding with all the people who "offended" me (they had reasons for what they said, and once I understood them and they understood me, things became a bit calmer), and in fact, I even thanked them for their critism.

But I'll humor you anyway and respond.

Like I've said before, I don't really have any musical background. My talent is writing -- as in WITH WORDS, so all I had were the lyrics I wrote. But I wanted to turn those lyrics into a recording as well -- I figured it would be really great if my song lyrics were actually SUNG, since that's what usually happens to SONG lyrics.

The only problem is, neither I nor none of my friends, family, and people I'm around have any sort of musical background. They do other sorts of things (actually though, most of them have writing experience as well). But I like music, and I'm willing to admit I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to it.

I'm not embarrassed or ashamed to admit when I don't know something, or if I lack in talent in that area. And I also know that a lot of people are too busy, or rude/skeptical, or uninterested to help out...but there's always, always someone who IS willing to help. That's how my Do As Infinity site was made in the first place; I know some Japanese, but nowhere near enough to be considered pro...but I wanted their songs translated badly, and I felt it was a shame that no one else did it. So I went around and asked if anyone would be willing to help me out. In exchange for their hard work, all I could do was search for ALL of the supplies (the MP3s and kanji lyrics, and romaji if it existed), and give them credit. Most people turned me down, but I eventually lucked up and found people who were willing to help. And now, thanks to them, I have ALL of Do As Infinity's songs translated -- and I shared them with the rest of their fans via my website.

I might not have been a translator, but I definitely tried my best to help out: I gave them MP3s and all the kanji they needed, and I took the responsibility of posting the lyrics and creating the site myself. I busted my ass too, although in a different way. The negativity I got in the beginning, and the help I finally did get, really left an impression on me and taught me a lot about people and myself. And I even learned a few things about translating lyrics -- and now I somewhat enjoy the process myself, when in the beginning I thought I couldn't do it at all and I wasn't even sure if I wanted to do it.

That said, I figured this project would be very similar. I have no background in singing, or making MIDIs, and I'm not that talented with audio editors (or at least the really advanced stuff in regards to adding sound effects) -- similar to how I had no background with lyrics. And I expected most people to just say "no" or laugh at me, or ignore me, or have super harsh words to say -- just like what you and several others have done. And I also understand that it takes a LOT of work and time to do this-- just like what the translators had to go through...but it probably takes even more time to work on a song (assuming of course, if I can't find any good pre-made MIDIs somewhere).

I'm willing to help out my team members as much as I can -- it's the least I can do -- and I probably will learn some things from this experience as well. But as it stands now, I don't know that much and I KNOW I'd get the best results if I stick with what I know best, which is writing lyrics. I'm a bit of a perfectionalist (just like a lot of the musicians who've responded to me), and I know I can give my all to lyrics and achieve what I think is my personal best. But that's not the case with singing and music for me, at least not now, because I KNOW that I'm not at my best...so I want people who think they can achieve their best, and who don't think this project will be a problem.

If you're not interested, or don't think you can do it, then it's simple: don't volunteer. But if it fits your interest and timeframe, then once again, it's simple: please volunteer. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, I'm not taking anything for granted, and I'm not gonna be a lazy-ass bastard and just let EVERYONE do ALL the work. I WILL help out my teammates in anyway I can, and I AM going to maintain the ENTIRE site by myself -- which I'll build BY HAND by the way, without programs like FrontPage (all I use is my prior knowledge, and NotePad).

If I sound offended by the way, I'm not. I just want to let you, and everyone else, know EXACTLY where I come from and what my roles in this project are.

And in case no one else seemed to realize this, my project is NOT for profit. LOTS of people IN JAPAN have made Ringo Shiina cover songs -- and some of them even used the same melodies as her original songs; check out Yamaha and their MidPlayer site if you don't believe me...and they've NEVER gotten in trouble. It's similar with dounjinshi in Japan too; in fact, some of those doujinshin/fan manga get SOLD, and they don't get in trouble...so I don't understand what the big deal is. How would I get in trouble if I used the original songs, yet people in Japan have done it for years and they don't seem to get prosecuted?

I hope that last part didn't sound smart-assed; it was a legitimate question because I really don't see what the big deal is. ( ^^; ) I'm all for creativity, and I'd like to make my own MIDIs someday (even new compositions), but what's wrong with using the original melody/song if you can?

PS: Just curious -- and I want to hear other people's responses to this as well -- if someone has an idea, and they think it's a good idea, but they can only work on part of the actual idea themselves (because the "idea" involves several steps, and they only have expertise and knowledge with one [or a few] of the steps), then what is that person supposed to do? Should they just let that idea go to waste? Just sit there and sulk about it, and then if -- IF -- their idea finally does get done (but by someone else), are they just supposed to sit there and go, "Oh well...better luck next time"? Or should they at least try and make it a reality as best as they can -- even if it means asking for a handout -- despite what people may think, and the negative comments and criticism they might receive?