[SR] 2011.11.02 - Carnation (CD) [Single]

[karateexplosion]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Jihad

They make distinctions because there is a distinct difference in Pre-Adult and Post-Adult Shiina.

For me, it's a fine line between old Shiina and "nu-Shiina". I wouldn't say SG is that far of a divergence from HF which in turn isn't that far removed from KZK, for obvious reasons. Does it come down to the baseline shift of genre she's exhibited, her handing the reigns off to other musicians, or what? Her change has been gradual enough that it's hard to define a turning point, at least in my opinion, unlike some artists.

If there's one thing I think we can agree on, I think it's that everything from at least Kyouiku and before can be solidly considered "old Ringo", simply because they are so different from many of her newer works.

[kuro_neko]

I think the line being drawn at Adult is fair. It was the first time Ringo admits allowing members of the band (namely: Kameda) to influence the entire concept/sound of the work. Most of the songs on Adult belong to her but were drastically altered in production (see: Himitsu). With Kyouiku, that work was more or less all Ringo, kind of a Ringo does 5 piece band experiment. Then with the change in line up and this idea of a more adult, jazzy sound, her style started to shift.

I guess that is why I somewhat object to "nu-ringo," because it isn't just ringo, rather, it is the band directing the overall concept and production of the work now. Ringo still continues to write music, but who knows how she intended it to originally sound once Ukigumo gets his nasty paws on it. I used to have faith in Jihen, but at the moment its pretty much just Ringo and Hata who I still trust.

case in point: mon amour, a song I wouldn't normally like in concept or execution, but the digital manipulation is just done so well. if this was jihen, I shudder to think how ukigumo could have turned this into one of the Variety rejects or the one or two songs he contributed to Daihakken.

then again he does come out with songs like Kimaru every now and then.... I guess its just truly a mixed bag. Except Ringo. Bitch needs to be solo!!!

[so_cold]

HF is the big departure point IMO, the point at which her tunes make a knight's move away from anything from Aozora all through. Yes there are only a handful of new ones, but introduced is this new showtune-y sounding idiom that wasn't really there before. Sid to Hakuchuumu for example sounds less in that idiom than #02. Watashi no Aisuru Hito. That's despite the former being a big-band composition at root that was given an overblown big band reworking and the latter being samba/house/cutesy pop.

Plus you have this early C20th tap-dance film style imparted by Saito Neko, who'll throw in these Broadway musical cliches: the banjo on the track here for example, and the da-na-nahs towards the end of #03. Jinsei wa Omoidoori and these big thick sounding orchestras. She really did have a habit of singing harshly over that backdrop as well as the song goes on which she still does today (if not on this single) although the particular timbre of harshness may be a way in which her voice "matured".

In one sense, Adult is only like HF if you consider jazz to be one big stylistic monolith that Shiina Ringo had never touched on before. The jazziness of the Kyoiku era is strangely underplayed, especially as HZM plays in a jazz band and Hirama drops some (occasionally twisted) jazz rhythms. I'd argue that only Gunjou Biyori, Crawl and Kao are really untouched by any fusional influence from that whole era and at the time it was really her jazziest album to date, as well as her hardest rocking one.

Jazz and rock are not mutually exclusive, and her next innovation after KZK was what was used to be called the Jihen-ish sound (before the likes of Killer Tune came along) although you can hear the seeds of it in something like Mayonaka. Unless you were attracted to her for the way she rocks (which is very fair enough), if you like Sounan and Genjitsu wo Warau you'll probably also like Shuraba and Himitsu, however the latter is arranged and particularly as neither is a retread of anything prior (hello, Blackout). I certainly agree Adult is that "more jazzy", but that's not as straightforward a truth as would seem intuitive.

However I won't argue if anyone wants to call Adult nu-Ringo. That tempering of musical persona, loss of attitude and edge, gradual relaxing of creative control etc does all start there, along a movement towards music that would not offend a middle-of-the-dial radio station... Tasogare Naki, Tegami, Superstar, Toumei Ningen etc much as I like er, the first two :p would clearly win a new audience who might not have liked SR before, as Gunjou Biyori before it might have reached out to a wider group of J-pop/rock listeners. I don't have the market research to back that up, but it sounds like it.

For whatever random reason, not sure if it's synesthesia or what, I get this taste of citrus in my mouth whenever I hear something I think is nu-Ringo (most of HF and SG) that I don't get with Adult. That doesn't have to mean anything to anyone else, but I'm sure that's some reaction to the particular scales, modes, rhythms or whatever it is she's using. I get a slight sense of wanting to push that music away. Not speaking for the other old fans here in case this statement gets used against them, but it's not usually my cup of tea...

[Tokyo Jihad]

Originally Posted by so_cold

The jazziness of the Kyoiku era is strangely underplayed, especially as HZM plays in a jazz band and Hirama drops some (occasionally twisted) jazz rhythms. I'd argue that only Gunjou Biyori, Crawl and Kao are really untouched by any fusional influence from that whole era and at the time it was really her jazziest album to date, as well as her hardest rocking one.

I'll have to buy you a pint some day, so cold.

[TurtleFu]

I mean, this is just my opinion, but I really think that the "change" in Ringo isn't a change at all. It's a gradual shift in outlook that began with her very first release and has continued at a slow, steady pace.

And are we all forgetting that Kameda arranged MM and SS and definitely had a significant effect on the sounds of those albums? Adult really isn't the "first time" she's let someone in on the sound of the album. She's ALWAYS had a co-producer to help shape the sound.

[sylfi]

The only time she didn't have a co-producer was Kalk Samen Kuri no Hana, and she said that she never wanted to do that again.

I agree with Turtle that it's been a slow, steady progression. If you listen to KSK, beneath the thick arrangements, the compositions were getting jazzier and lighter, which was exemplified when they were re-arranged for HF. She's been moving toward this "Disney-style" music for years and years now. That's why I don't make a distinction between old Ringo and nu-Ringo. They're the same artist, just constantly maturing.

To use a different example, people don't really make a distinction between old Utada and new Utada, even though the styles between First Love and HEART STATION are vastly different. One is classic 90s American R&B, the other is more ethereal electronic music. She just naturally progressed to that point. There were elements of electronic music introduced in DEEP RIVER (just like there were more jazz and big band elements in KSK), and she just went for that electronic sound completely with HEART STATION (just like Ringo has been doing more jazzy, big band songs). Can we just accept the fact that ALL artists change, develop, and mature over periods of time?

[deadgrandma]

No band has anything on Attack Attack! when it comes to genre growth. Here, you can hear it all in one song, from humble Hardcore beginnings right through to amazing dance music and what autotune should be utilized like.

How to grow as an artist

[Tokyo Jihad]

Mature is not the word. Regress.

I think to use KZK as proof of "jazzy" and "light" you have to heavily cherry-pick what to listen to and what to ignore. Yes Okonomi de is a take on a lounge act, yes Torikoshi Kurou adds levity, yes Poltergeist is a take on a waltz. But what is important is the phrase "take on." I like to think we can all hear stark differences between Okonomi de and a song like Carnation or its b-sides, Torikoshi Kurou and a song like Futari Bochi Jikan or Kronekodow, Poltergeist and the HF version of Poltergeist. The former have some teeth, some bite, some "Shiina Ringo*" in them. Shiina is fitting the styles to her where in the latter she is fitting in to them.

Artists do mostly develop, but they don't all mature. And Shiina Ringo isn't maturing, isnt refining, jack shit about her craft.

*:I dont care if this is "Shiina Ringo" the actual person or "Shiina Ringo" the stage persona. I believe she let far more of herself pour out from behind a mask than her "being herself" or whatever the new rhetoric is.

[deadgrandma]

It's weird when people talk about music maturing. Sometimes I think it's just a word added when something stripped down comes out. One of the defenses of TKOL that was floating round was that it was them 'maturing' when basically it was just the same old Radiohead with less shit/oompf in it...

I know this isn't really adding to this conversation just a thought I had reading the above.

[sylfi]

Well, when I said maturing, I meant as a person, but I guess I didn't make that clear. She's getting older and her taste in things is changing, etc, etc. That's the sense I was using the word in.

Honestly, listen to a lot of those songs on KSK. Okonomi de, Poltergeist, Meisai (which is a jazz song), Ishiki, Yattsuke Shigoto, Kuki, etc. They all have that big band/fluffy/jazzy (choose one or multiple) idiom in them. Even if she may be seen as regressing, she seems to be doing what she wants to do, and that goes along with the development and maturing of her as a person.

Honestly, I think our different viewpoints are caused by me becoming a Ringo fan only very recently. You've been following her much longer than I have. I've heard everything all at once and loved every single bit of it. I do admit, the showtunes have worn on me a little bit, but this single kinda restored my confidence. Then again, I only have a very narrow view on things. So excuse my ignorance on any matters regarding Ringo. Also, I'm not very articulate, so excuse me if my arguments always seem muddled (but that's entirely different story )

As a side note, I hear pretty much zero difference between the KSK version of Poltergeist and the HF version. The only differences are in the instruments. I don't quite think that was the best example.