The Lost Thread

[golem09]

yeah, but as Richard said, they have very strict rules for who will be their leader. It also seems to me as if their leader is never one of them for a reason.
Instead they choose people the island prefers:
Ben was (maybe) healed from a shotwound, Locke was able to walk again, and who knows what was up with Widmore. I think being healed gave Ben the opportunity to become the leader. Without it, there would have been no chance at all for him to prove him worthy, because htey wouldn't suspect him to be special, and he wouldn't know that they require it.

Unless they are somehow amazed of him, Ben couldn't even begin to think about leading the people he desires, he is too much amazed of THEM for that. I think only Sayid made it possible for him to become the leader.

[Inaudible-Whisper]

Well Richard I think always intended to recruit ben as leader, I'm just questioning whether ben became leader because he truly deserved it or if he betrayed the power the island gave him by trapping Jacob and pretending his actions are on Jacobs behalf making ben just a messenger when in reality ben is simply carrying out his own actions. By the time Locke comes about, you can clearly see that Richard doubts ben. I think it is sayids shooting, or at least partly due to sayids shooting that may have made ben the ruthless, impatient, power hungry man that he is. Maybe if he waited with dharma without being shot he'd have grew to become the more honest leader Richard see's in him.

[golem09]

I think it's the other way around. Richard never cared about Ben until he survived Sayids bullett, and that made him a candidate for the leadership.
And I think that his transformation into the current ruthless Ben is caused by something else.
I still have my Darth Vader theory, that his ultimate goal is to revive his mother. So learning about the possibility to do so could be the reason for him to become like that.

[Inaudible-Whisper]

Richard was clearly interested in ben before the shooting. A vision of bens mother lead ben into the forest where Richard told him he would be saved. Hence why ben states that he is sick of waiting. Now, maybe the gunshot is the thing that triggers bens "initiation" as an other but I don't think it's the thing that sparks Richards interest; he clearly see's something special in ben from earlier on. As Richard said to Locke, "we start our search from a very young age". There's no indcation that he rapidly makes ben the leader after 1 miracle, though it may be a factor, maybe even the the deciding factor -- assuming it is even the island that heals ben. Either way I'm still fairly certain the shooting kick starts bens downfall.

Damon and Carlton pretty much back up my sentiment in the new podcast with their anology: "what if you went back in time and killed 12 year old Hitler to change the course of history and you end up causing Hitler to become the man he was"

[frecklegirl]

ohhhh shitttt that was crazy. I wonder what will happen to Sayid now? But this episode kind of showed that his character is more or less useless now. Like, he has nothing left to do in his life, no motivations, he's just kind of drifting along. Before, he wanted to get off the island to go be with Nadia. Well she died. Now he has nothing. So if he dies after this... so what? was kinda the feeling I got from this episode. But who knows. Maybe he will go live with Rousseau. I wonder if they find a way to get back to the future, even if Sayid isn't physically near them, he will still get flashed back?

Also, I guess the chicken thing at the beginning showed that if a chicken (Ben) needs to be killed, Sayid will do it. The origins of a killer... or whatever. I also can't believe he was so gullible that he fell for that bounty hunter woman's advances. Are you a complete idiot, Sayid?! You've killed a bunch of people and their families are probably pissed, and you're just going to accept that some random woman in a bar wants to get with you? mmmmmm no.

I was also a little disappointed Sawyer didn't do more to reassure Juliet that things between them were going to be all right. Like, "hey, she means nothing to me now, you're the one I want" etc. He didn't really do that and it was like nooooo don't let Juliet think you're going to dump her!! Sawyer kept going off and doing a bunch of stuff on his own without telling Juliet much of it and it was kind of annoying.

Also, who do you guys think did the burning VW bus thing?

[golem09]

I think Ben did the burning VW Bus thing, to get Sayid out of prison. Otherwise there would have been no possibility for him to do so.
And yes, Sawyer should have talked more to Juliet. They are such a good pair.

And I also think it marks his downfall, but I don't think that the act of shooting gave him a trauma or something like that. I think his personaly "downfall" is just caused by aquirering the leadership, and getting to know what he could be capable of (and as I said my Darth Vader theory)
Because he is a VERY strong manipulator. He does so many things, and sacrifices so much. I can't imagine anymore that his main motivation is just a lust for power. No Way. So he has a reason, which doesn't make him into a bad person, just one with morals minor to his goal, which is very important to him.

[Inaudible-Whisper]

I think that we were supposed to think that ben lit the van in order to sneak into the prison to break out sayid. I think sayids ultimate goal is to get vengeance on ben (who probably had nadia killed in order to hire sayid in the first place). Once he figures out that he can't kill ben in the past as the timeline won't allow it, then he'll probably attempt to get back to the future with the others to kill present ben.

I agree about sawyer and Juliet. I really hope he doesn't mess things up. I think the majority of the audience would be happy with a sawyer/Juliet Kate/jack end to the love escapades, though they're probably going to stretch out Kate and sawyers lust, even if they don't act on it.

Edit: OK so earlier I warned you guys to keep away from spoiler sites, well seriously keep away from anything to do with lost other than places you trust. The identity of Jacob was in the comment section of aicn and on imdb earlier -- fortunately I didn't see anything but darkufo has confirmed that such big spoilers have leaked.

MERGED --------------------

Very nice episode! It has all the makings of a classic lost episode -- emotional, good flashbacks, funny and a great ending. Hurley and Miles are brilliant! I love the fact that they're like fans of the show theorising. It's kinda like Miles is the writers telling the viewers exactly what's happening. The only time he was stumped (Why didn't Ben remember Sayid?) was answered later in the episode. And what about that? That was odd -- he'll lose his innocence and forget everything? Nice nod to Eloise Hawking and Charles Widmore from Alpert too. He doesn't answer to them, apparently.

I liked Kates story. I thought it nicely tied stuff up and Evenageline Lilly is genuinely a fantastic actress. I'm glad it looks like they're really putting to rest Sawyer and Kate. They best not mess that up. Welcome back John Locke . I missed him! I love his cheeky smile. Ben episode next week... the preview looks EPIC. Things look like they're really piecing together and the finale is nearing!

Welcome back to the land of the living.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I'm fairly certain now that 1. Penny was born on the island (this being 77, that makes sense assuming she is Widmores daughter and Widmore doesn't leave until older Ben exiles him) and 2. Penny and Daniel Faraday are siblings (I'm assuming Eloise and Charles are a couple, and Penny and Daniel are their children).

[golem09]

So, ben is forgiven, nice one. But a very cool touch that he was forced to follow Locke by his own daughter

Otherwise a pretty slow episode again.
And the only thing in the flashbacks that contained new information for us was that he wasn't successful in killing Penny.
Damn, I need more mainstory

[Inaudible-Whisper]

Really? I thought that was by far the best episode of the season. It's like they were holding all of the answers in front of us and we're so close to getting them but not quite yet. The whispers, the statue and the smoke monster all at least alluded to. It was great to see some smaller pieces put together like Ben "stealing" Alex (although technically saving both Alex and her mothers lives), Widmore being banished from the island and Ben's attempt to kill Penny (which he chose to not do). The talk about the temple, how we haven't seen it; only the walls that hide it, and the huge Egyptian caverns full of references to Anubis and the smoke monster. And then the smoke monster itself coming out of that ancient vent and using Alex to judge Ben like it did Yemi and Eko, plus we see how Ben attempts to summon it. This episode was just soaked in mythology. And what does Illana know about the statue (which has to be Anubis given what we saw under the temple)? Overall, this was one of the classic lost episodes and one of my favourites ever. I'm VERY surprised you thought it was slow. It's the highest rated episode of the season thus far on DarkUFO and the 5th highest rated episode ever.

Anyway, aside from what the episode contained; my thoughts. It doesn't surprise me that Ben was forgiven. I've always said he has the islands interests at heart, he is just very ruthless in regards to getting things done. I don't think the island likes that side of him, which is why he has to follow Locke who seems a bit more moral. Unlike Eko he wanted and asked for forgiveness. It was clever getting Alex (smoke monster) to "force" him to follow Locke, because he likely wouldn't have answered to anyone else.

As for Locke, there is something we're not quite seeing. Where was he when 316 immediately crashed? Where did he go to when Ben was summoning Smokey? He seems much calmer, more knowledgeable and less surprised by things that would normally surprise him. Widmore I think is kinda like Ben in that he has the islands best interests at heart; Widmore is just even more ruthless than Ben. He wanted Russeou (sic) and Alex killed for seemingly no reason and he was willing to have Alex killed, "changing the rules". He also had relations outside of the others, likely with Penny's mother. He's even more jealous of Ben than Ben is of Locke, but clearly the island favoured Ben and now favours Locke. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if the war that is repeatedly alluded to isn't between Ben and Widmore but between Ben + Widmore versus a third party. As for Illana's "What lies in the shadow of the statue?", it seemed to me that she was seeking somebody and the answer to that question is the "password" similar to when Desmond was seeking his hatch replacement . Maybe she is working for Widmore, maybe she is working for my this "third party". Ben wanted to kill Penny, but couldn't because of Charlie, same with Danielle. I guess being a motherless child himself kept him from wanting to do that to another child. He does have a heart even if it is very, very small

I could talk about this episode for hours. It was just awesome.

[fluffiethesock]

Aww man, I just had a dream that I was following Charles Widmore all around the island, in and out of these secret doorways in the jungle. Widmore was explaining to me all the secrets of the island, and I was thinking how awesome it was that I finally knew what was going on. We even got to kill a dude who was following us. Well, he killed the guy and I was traumatized.