Speculations on the "real" style of shiina (long long read)

[imkookoo]

Originally Posted by imkookoo

That's the simple way of thinking about it. The world is complex, it should be thought of as that way.

Just reading this over, it sounds a bit harsh. I don't mean this as a shot at you, Jihad, that I think you're stupid or anything like that. I just mean there's always hidden reasons for decisions that us external entities will never fully understand.

I think we're on two different tracks however. Yes, Shiina was the one who picked the songs on Variety.. so she is accountable in the regard that she is the reason for Variety. "Accountable" has such a negative connotation though. I'm more trying to say that there should be no negativity toward Shiina because of Variety for the reason I stated above. It doesn't reflect on her own musicianship.

[golem09]

Originally Posted by D.K.Liu

Golem ... I'll second TeslaGuy on 'quality' not being a purely objective property. You can measure quality 'objectively' only after you have decided/chosen a paradigm on which to base your judgement/analysis. Usually we think of quality in relation to 'fitness for purpose', a quality car or furniture is one that is reliable, durable etc, and we can come up with objective ways to measure/test these eg. frequency of failure, and how long they last.

For creative arts ... it becomes harder to define the 'purpose'. Maybe it's for people's enjoyment, maybe it's for the artist's own enjoyment, or somethings else. I'm not sure ... but it seems to depend on what people think about the work - which you agree is subjective.

Let's say a lot of people have similar feelings for certain artwork, perhaps we can analyze their opinions to construct a model or a paradigm for measuring 'quality'. Perhaps you can say it's more objective than a single person's opinion, but it is not a kind universal or people independent objectivity.

I'm not immune to thinking sometimes "I really don't like this music, how can other people like it?" but I think it is extremely arrogant to say that they should admit that their taste is 'inferior'.

I think we can all benefit in these discussion by reading a bit on the philosophy of aesthetics (I have yet to do so, but this wikipedia article seems interesting).

D.K.Liu

I think what you're talking about is taste, not quality. If quality and taste are the same, then a lot of discussions would be ... useless.
And as I sad, just because somebody does like something I don't like, that doesn't mean, that is has a good quality.
I do like certain things that are just shit. I know it, it's fine, I don't like it any less because of it, but that doesn't make it good either.

[D.K.Liu]

ShinjiPG,
Deja vu? Someone else suggested the same thing?

Golem,
Yeah ... I am kind of mixing the two things, quality and taste.
But I'm curious to know how one could judge an artwork as high or low quality independently of taste. Let's try to pin down what one might use as the basis for determining quality in music: the melody, chord progression, instrumental arrangements, tone quality, the execution/performance, rhythm, tempo, dynamics (loud/soft), contrast, order, symmetry.

In visual arts, if one's purpose was to represent a physically existing object in a painting for example, we might say it's high quality if it faithfully reproduces the sensory experience of the physical object. So by this criteria, you can say Van Gough's paintings are low quality? But if the purpose is to be creative in representing an object, then I would say Van Gough's paintings are high quality in that department.

So we come to a point where one has to choose which he values more in a painting, creativity or faithful representation. Would you say that the individual preferences between the two is a matter of taste, and the dominant elements we choose to judge the quality of is subjective?

D.K.Liu

[Tokyo Jihad]

Originally Posted by imkookoo

That's the simple way of thinking about it. The world is complex, it should be thought of as that way.

Heheh, I didn't even contemplate it as anything negative toward me. Not to diminish, but I've had *way* worse personal attacks here

I understand some of us are very forgiving of Shiina to the point of "let's keep blaming everyone else." And when you have such nice targets like Saito, Uki, and these days increasingly Izawa and even Kameda some have no problem.

HOWEVVA

This is SHIINA'S BAND. All 4 of her band members knows its Shiina's band. I agree with trying to make each member a part of the creative and musical process -- but when theres a release we have to expect Shiina quality. Not Uki quality, not even Kameda quality, Shiina quality. Who makes the executive decisions? It's Shiina. You can say "don't hold her accountable for songs she didn't write, even if she chose to play them" I think that's a stretch but even more so I totally hold her accountable for her lack of writing. My calculus teacher had a great quote, "Shut up until you can say something great." If Shiina didnt have anything great to say, she shouldn't have put out an album (Variety or HF, even though I understand the contractual-slash-money grab obligations.)

[Nimh]

Ringo's problem is that she's not simply an artist. She's a professional.

I'm sure the contract she has with EMI dictates a certain number of albums/DVDs/performances every year. I'm also sure that at this point she's given wide latitude on what sorts of music she wants to put out. As always, sales dictate the next contract's renegotiation, so it's all a balancing act.

Somebody earlier mentioned Van Gogh. He is the perfect example of someone who never had financial security, never had protection, never had mentors, never had professional respect in his lifetime. I'll bet anything that if he had all of those things, like Ringo does, something would be missing from his work. You don't paint those sunflowers unless your miserable lifestyle puts you in that field and you have no choice but to paint it.

[Ringo~Bingo]

i can understand that people say she put out Variety to honour the contract but because the product lacks quality as a whole it will potentially hurt future albums.. some people may refuse to buy the next album because of their experience with Variety so it was not a good decision artistically or business wise! in the end nobody is really happy with it.. that previous quote "Shut up until you can say something great." seems really appropriate here.

[Maou]

Originally Posted by imkookoo

But anyway, one important thing to realize though is that preferences change with age and life events. When she debuted, she was what.. 18? 19? Now she's almost 30. She's now a mother, and she's probably gotten much more mature being a working woman facing the real world. Those forces tend to subdue the teenage angst within a person. Not just angst, but pretty much any emotion. As you get older, you become a lot more neutral about things, because that's the state of balance. Also, views become a lot more inward than outward. Rock, I feel, needs extreme outward emotions. Whereas Jazz -tends- to be more inward, subdued emotions.

I don't buy the age argument because so many other artists don't completely change their style because they got old. The way you've structured your paragraph, you're suggesting that rock music is only for the immature and angry/angsty. Was Omatsuri Sawagi immature and angsty? No, but it did rock (and samba). Were the Phase 1 versions of Himitsu, Toumei Ningen, and Superstar less subdued because they were more rock oriented?

Originally Posted by imkookoo

But I still stand by my belief that the leader shouldn't be blamed for the actions of the subordinates, even though people are so inclined to do so.

That's just a fact of life though. No matter what, the leader always has to take the blame for the bad if the leader is the one who gets all the credit when things go good (like SR does). If Variety was a great album, she'd be praised for letting the other members shine.

Originally Posted by TeslaGuy

Quality can be quite subjective. During his lifetime, everyone thought Van Gogh's work was shit.

Well, I can dislike the look of a piece of furniture even if the quality of the construction is top notch and vice-versa. Senkou Shoujo has poor construction, but I like the type of song. Kenka Joutou has fantastic construction, but I can't stand the sound of it. I'm sure the taste vs. quality thing was already resolved, but I like simpler terms.

[TeslaGuy]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Jihad

If Shiina didnt have anything great to say, she shouldn't have put out an album (Variety or HF, even though I understand the contractual-slash-money grab obligations.)

The inevitable Jihad jab at HF, an album that was never mentioned in this thread, and one that from conception through completion was mostly uninfluenced by Ringo's band. The first time I heard it I was disappointed and annoyed, but I kept it in my portable CD player and it only took a few days for me to start really enjoying it. I gradually dishabituated myself from the songs original versions and began to appreciate the songs on their own merit. I've listened to it 100+ times now, and while have admittedly never warmed to a couple of the tracks, count the two Nadataru Orchestra songs among my all time favorites. Perhaps they are not "great", but I still consider them excellent. And I don't demand that all of Ringo's output be "great". Any artist who explores as many avenues as she does is bound to have some variation in quality. If her next two releases of new material are mediocre, then I'll start to get worried.

[Nimh]

I'm beginning to wonder if we're all just rattling off preferences: some of us want more of *this* from TJ/SR, some of us want more of *that* from TJ/SR.....

Isn't the fact that TJ/SR are capable of delivering high-quality music to a variety (ahem) of preferences proof that they/she are exceptional talents? Every single thing they do may not appeal to one particular set of preferences, but imagine if it did.....I think that would be very boring.

[justriiingo]

Originally Posted by TeslaGuy

If her next two releases of new material are mediocre, then I'll start to get worried.

I was already thinking that after the release of Adult... and then I got HF, Variety, and Senkou Shoujou - not one, two but three mediocre releases!

Many people seem to think that SR's "real" style is jazz rather than rock. I never thought of SR as a jazz artist; most of her songs are jazz-influenced or jazzy, but never enough to be "jazz" per se. (exception: Sakuran) The rock though, is undisputed. Tsumi to Batsu, Tadashii Machii, the Double Six Ecstasy tour interpretation of KZK songs are all undeniably rock with the SR twist.

And when she formed her dream band aka TJ phase 1, she did jazz-influenced rock songs. Adult was conceptualised before Hirama and HZM left the band, (something tells me that they left because the album was too boring ) and it seems to be a jazz-pop concept. Many people loved Adult - it's professional and clean and beautifully recorded, but it seems almost devoid of passion.

As her fans, how are we to know what is her real style? Maybe she dabbles in all these different styles just because she doesn't want to show, or she doesn't know her real style. Maybe what she really likes are sweet pop songs like that of SPEED. It's hard to say.

All I know is that SR doesn't excite me anymore.
And that's a very sad thing.