Are we non-Japanese speakers missing out on the Ringo experience?

[kuro_neko]

people can get weird about shit like this. one time I used anata in my japanese class and my teacher flipped out on me and made a public spectacle of how rude I was being. then I moved to japan and went out and was regularly addressed "anata" but loads of people I've never met before.

language is largely personal and you can't just read a textbook and practice in a vacuum. that is what marks a good translator, the ability to sift through all the circumstance and conditions to find the heart of the matter.

nowadays women are using boku a lot more often, it isn't just something you hear from Ringo or other headstrong women. Oftentimes you will find in situations of group involvement, such as an office, everyone uses "kun" and "boku" which are generally associated mostly with male identification. not so much anymore when in group dynamics.

[ShinjiPG]

Isn't "boku" supposed to be used by little boys? Maybe that's why women use it too, because it's childish?
Oh sorry sorry sorry sorry, disregard what I wrote! My source is wiccapeedia.

[mizer_unmei]

Originally Posted by kuro_neko

people can get weird about shit like this. one time I used anata in my japanese class and my teacher flipped out on me and made a public spectacle of how rude I was being. then I moved to japan and went out and was regularly addressed "anata" but loads of people I've never met before.

Teachers also don't want their students to go around being labeled as a ignorant foreigner. All of the teachers I've had have stressed against using "anata" in an unfamiliar setting. I'm sure if you did you wouldn't get too much slack due to the Japanese speakers being able to compensate their rude reaction due to your being a foreigner. But in a normal setting between two Japanese people that would be considered rude. It's like not adding the definite/indefinite article -- it's not vital to the general meaning of the phrase, but it's a mistake that every native speaker could spot a mile away.

Sure language changes, but for something that ingrained into the society it wouldn't go away in the generation gap between my teachers and me.

[frecklegirl]

Originally Posted by ShinjiPG

Isn't "boku" supposed to be used by little boys? Maybe that's why women use it too, because it's childish?

Nope, not really, anyone of any age can use boku. Most boys choose between "boku" and "ore" at some point as their familiar pronoun of choice and stick to that. And women using it has nothing to do with wanting to sound childish; if anything, it's because they want to sound more masculine/gender-neutral and NOT sound feminine and girly.

Shinji, what's up with you lately, being so militant and aggressive? Come on, calm down!

[s3r3nity]

Originally Posted by frecklegirl

Just remember I didn't make that translation! I just host it... haha.

Ah, okay. That's unimportant to what I was saying though. I just meant knowing what the lyrics meant in general, not necessarily knowing what each seperate line meant, really added to the listening experience. I guess when I first heard it I assumed it was a love song or something, (listening to junk music causes you to assume things like that) so when I found out the actual meaning I was surprised at how well it fit with the melody/instruments/etc.
Sorry for the rambling.



Off Topic: The quoting in this forum is totally cool in that it gets rid of all the previous quotes to prevent towers! Super convenient ahaha.

[ShinjiPG]

Originally Posted by s3r3nity

Off Topic: The quoting in this forum is totally cool in that it gets rid of all the previous quotes to prevent towers! Super convenient ahaha.

You're funny.
I've seen people, including myelf, wanting the tower quoting power thing.

[kuro_neko]

Originally Posted by mizer_unmei

Teachers also don't want their students to go around being labeled as a ignorant foreigner. All of the teachers I've had have stressed against using "anata" in an unfamiliar setting. I'm sure if you did you wouldn't get too much slack due to the Japanese speakers being able to compensate their rude reaction due to your being a foreigner. But in a normal setting between two Japanese people that would be considered rude. It's like not adding the definite/indefinite article -- it's not vital to the general meaning of the phrase, but it's a mistake that every native speaker could spot a mile away.

Sure language changes, but for something that ingrained into the society it wouldn't go away in the generation gap between my teachers and me.

I say this with every bit of love and respect, but Japanese people are fucked up. My boyfriend has to tell people several times that he is Japanese to get them to take him seriously. He looks Japanese, he speaks fluent un-accented Tokyo-dialect (he grew up in shinjuku), but the fact that he has lived outside Japan for over 10 years puts him in that "other" category. Even people here in Hawai'i get really confused about it, it is so silly.

I brought that up because, well, I don't know, it makes sense in my head, but, no, really, I think anyone who has lived in Japan for any amount of time will attest to how crazy Japanese customs and society can be. It gets so overly complex and there are so many motions and formalities that no one really knows which one to follow, so you just make it complicated to make it complicated. That is the worst mistake with Japanese teachers, they are so worried about that aspect you mentioned but when you get to Japan and actually take to the streets it causes you problems. Friends your own age are confused why you talk like a polite obachan (cuz thats what I learned in school!) and the average person you encounter in a business is so confused that your even speaking japanese at all they aren't even listening.

and wait until you can actually use proper sonkeigo and kenjougo, they get FLOORED. Its like, as soon as you start off that sentence with 'watakushi" they immediately go into over drive and their circuits fry. you can actually smell the smoke and see the steam.

okay, seriously and not being an ass now, as any linguist will tell you, any method of communicating is only as good as how well it lets you convey your intended message to your intended target. so using anata might complicate the puzzle, but simply by being white or brown or black or blue or whatever your already throwing a huge wrench in the system. I think a lot of Japanese courses would be a lot more useful if rather than work towards a glass ceiling, and then from there into academia, they progressed and diverged after the second year or so into two directions, one towards translations and scholary Japanese, the other towards the Japanese that will get you backstage at concerts, into cool clubs in shinjuku/shibuya, and get you the sweet hookups. it totally helps.

[s3r3nity]

To bring back a thread from the semi-dead...

When I first started listening to Ringo, I put MM on a playlist and went to take a nap. I woke up to Marunouchi, and thought for sure that the song was about birds. When she says TORIPPU, (trip) I could've sword she was saying "TORI" which I think means bird. So up until I read the translation, I took it to be a song about chickens and such. Reading the actual lyrics was a bit of a let down, to tell the truth
But then I discovered New Way to Fly and a full circle was completed.

[Controversy]

Originally Posted by 02340234

When I started listening to SR, my Japanese was limited and even now, I am still pretty far from being fluent, but I think the fun part about learning Japanese and listening to SR is you slowly unlock the meaning of her lyrics. You'll be listening to one of her songs and finally get some random phrase and it feels awesome. (This happens to me pretty often and then I get reobsessed with whatever song it is haha)

Same here! But I do make it a point to remember the kanji song titles. Maybe it's because I'm a Chinese, so I find it easier to remember. As for SR's lyrics, I feel that it's very subjective because I've seen Chinese to English translations and all I can say is that, there are some Chinese phrases or words that English can't convey and same goes for Japanese.