Musical properties of Shiina Ringo's music -music theory experts please help

[lazer85]

Originally Posted by Entry№1

+ Lots of 7th chords!!! (Perhaps too many.)

+ I'm not totally sure about this, but I think she favors certain chromatic notes; particularly G# (in the C major scale).

This is exactly the kind of stuff I wanted to know. I am not familiar enough with 7th chords to recognize them all the time but I had a feeling there were a lot of them because whenever I try to write a song that ends up having 7th chords I always feel like it sounds too much like her. The second bit is something I had no idea about, would love to hear more.

Originally Posted by Entry№1

The other important thing to consider is that Ringo has sung many wonderful songs she didn't write herself, and I believe you could easily mistake TJ-penned tracks like "Gunjou Biyori" and "Killer Tune" for having been written by Ringo. I'd have even more to say, but I already had to re-write this post once.

I realize this but I was under the impression she wrote vocal melodies even on most songs that weren't attributed to her, as long as lyrics were attributed to her (the old version of OSCA or Killer Tune, I forget which, doesn't have vocals, right?). Even if she didn't write the song, the songs were written with her in mind (minus covers which she still picked). I've also come to regard Ringo as a collective rather than a person with a girl of the same name at the front (kind of like what some people think about Shakespeare being a group of people, I mean Kameda has been there for years, its easy to see the music as the product of a band or a group).

I didn't mention MM because while I recognize all the songs, I probably couldnt sing along to anything other than Marunouchi Sadistic and Onaji Yoru where as I know most of SS to Adult extremely well (haven't memorized all the lyrics or anything but I know where a lot of the wierd effects are places, I know when her voice cracks etc. the things I love about these albums). This will change soon because I've been slowly re-exploring all Ringo's music song-by-song now that I understand the lyrics well enough.

[Entry№1]

Originally Posted by lazer85

This is exactly the kind of stuff I wanted to know. I am not familiar enough with 7th chords to recognize them all the time but I had a feeling there were a lot of them because whenever I try to write a song that ends up having 7th chords I always feel like it sounds too much like her. The second bit is something I had no idea about, would love to hear more.

In the last few months I have been studying chromatic notes, trying to figure out in what way chromatic notes extend common scales. People tend to think of a scale as having 7 notes and the rest being a kind of twilight zone occupied by only broadway, blues, and jazz. I've been trying to understand exactly how chords including chromatic notes relate to a greater framework of chords excluding them. In earnest, I've not learned much other than the fact that even with our 13-tone chromatic scale we've become very musically close-minded. Maybe I should go back to studying classical chord progressions and leave that stuff to the pros.
If I remember correctly, the G# chromatic is used in Marunouchi Sadistic and Cappucino. I chose those two songs to study chromatically because the usage of their chromatics came across as being very natural - not cheesy/sappy or dissonant/hostile like most chromatic work does. And surprise! It ended up being the same chromatic note. I've wondered if it is merely coincidence or if maybe the G# has a special relationship to the major scale that Ringo exploits.
In any case, since Ringo is so all-over-the-place, I didn't really know which facet you were more pre-occupied with. My advice is, narrow your scope. I focused in on a few key songs - Honnou, Gips, Cappucino, Marunouchi Sadistic, and a few others - and worked from there since I decided they were some of the best examples of 'the ringo sound'. They were the epitome of the perverted pop music ringo made in her early days - the Ringo I find perhaps most fascinating as a person, a composer, and a lyricist.

[Scribble R]

Intriguing.

[D.K.Liu]

G# in C major scale = flat 6th
used in the harmonic minor scale.

I have noticed her use of flat 6th too.

Most songs comprises of the following chords I IImin IIImin IV V/V7 VImin which are formed by triads starting at various positions on the major scale.

Her use of flat 6th in the melody seems to occur when she uses IIImaj.
I'm not sure what this means though.
Need to think about this a bit more.

[justriiingo]

the IIImaj (instead of iii) could be acting as substitute for the V chord, G goes to G# to get the major sound of the V chord, which according to music theory is always a major triad regardless of the music being in major or in minor.

DK Liu, is there a reason why you're calling the G# a flat 6? Are you suggesting augmented 6th chords...?

@Entry№1: Have you looked at the chord progs for Juuwaki no Naka before? It's really cool, amongst other things she managed a minor v chord without the music sounding weird. I have the chord prog posted somewhere on EMF. That song is so harmonically rich, and it's got a beautiful melody as well. Ringo's songwriting doesn't get any purer than that... plus the performance in the demo was so good, I suspect the only reason why it's not a single is because the producer couldn't make it any better than the demo!

[D.K.Liu]

I haven't heard of augmented 6th chords before. I just picked one between sharp 5th and flat 6th. I must confess my knowledge of music theory is quite limited so I might have departed from standard terminology.

I was thinking about Odaijini when I wrote about the major III usage.
I think the chord progression in the verse goes like this (correct me if it's wrong):
I - IIm - I - III - VIm - VI - V

[ParisJihen]

Oh guys... do you really think that she (or any other genuine songwriter) has that kind of twisted theoric considerations in mind as she writes ?
You will never be able to write a sincere song if you don't let it come easily, without analysing it ! If you have to, it means that you're not a songwriter...

[Entry№1]

Originally Posted by ParisJihen

Oh guys... do you really think that she (or any other genuine songwriter) has that kind of twisted theoric considerations in mind as she writes ?
You will never be able to write a sincere song if you don't let it come easily, without analysing it ! If you have to, it means that you're not a songwriter...

Define 'genuine'. By analyzing music theory, you are becoming more fluent in the language of music. Art is mostly communication, and without language you can't communicate. Ringo is all about subtlety. How can you be subtle without being articulate...? Honestly, I don't know how you could appreciate Ringo without being to some degree analytical. And I don't necessarily think 'sincerity' is the goal of every song written. If it was, Ringo would have failed miserably with 'Kabuki-cho no Joou', which, while being awesome, is obviously not 'sincere'.
@justriiingo: D.K. Liu calls G# the 'flat 6th' because A is the 6th tone in the C major scale. And I'll take a look at those chords. Thanks for transcribing them.

[lazer85]

I doubt she thinks about this when shes writing. I just wanted to know what it was that I liked so much about her music and music in general. Most people can say 'I like hip hop, metal and funk' or I like slow songs or I like anything that is easy to listen to, or I like Japanese pop artists. Genre doesn't matter for me but I'm still very specific about what music I like and there are certain constants that I don't exactly understand. One of those constants are vocal melodies that sound like a lot of Ringo melodies. This was an attempt at understanding what it is that I like in certain songs so maybe I could find more of it or maybe I could explore certain progressions and become more familiar with them so that they come out in my music more natural (which would be a good thing if I love them).

[ParisJihen]

Maybe "genuine" is not the appropriate word... I meant authentic artists, honest musicians driven by true inspiration and not commercial goals... (same thing for the word "sincere"). I teach music everyday, and all what people need to know to be able to write a good song are: major chords, minor chords and 7th chords. Maybe as a listener or music student, you need to analyse everything, a songwriter don't... All the theoric knowledge you just mentioned above will only be useful to you if you wanna become a jazz musician, it won't help you to write a song. I always thought: the more you analyse things, the less spontaneous you are. I mean you are inspired or not. Science won't make an artist out of you.