Gyakuyunyuu ~Kouwankyoku~ (Self Covers album) and May/June Tour 2014 - Page 21

lazer85 · 2014.05.21, 08:00 PM

Perhaps some of your tolerance levels for cutesy and overproduced music is higher because many of you are into a lot of Japanese (pop). I've spent the last 2 years outside japan and away from Japanese music and I was never into pop music. It is rare to find someone who can make pop music that is also art, and even rarer to find one who can do it consistently. MOST of the "art" that we are familiar with is a product, some of it starts off pure and goes through a packaging process, but almost all mainstream pop is product from the start. You can be in denial all you want but there is a direct conflict between making art and producing a product. When you see the artistic product and what happens to it yourself, this distinction becomes much clearer. Art is always compromised when it becomes a product, and the level of compromise varies. Shiina Ringo seemed to be more of an artist that most of her peers and she also seemed to get away with very little compromise. The fascination with KZK is that it is her most pure work, least influenced by the idea of being a product.

I think a certain level of compromise is forgivable for new artists when they are struggling to develop the means of making whatever it is they want to make. I think our massive disappointment comes from the fact that this woman we saw as a true artist actually turned out to be a pretty hardcore business woman, and yes the two are conflicting.

She is respected enough in the industry to be calling the shots.... and she is! They are just not the calls an artist would make. Or perhaps they are the calls of an artist who is being influenced more by product (all the product-"artists" she has produced songs for) than by any real art. The idea behind this concept of working with different producers seems full of artistic intent, but she is surrounding herself with product-makers here, not artists (Otomo Yoshihide is the one exception that I recognize).

I know some of you will still try and convince yourself that this is about her "well being" and that it's her right to make money, but it's pretty clear that Radiohead isn't struggling, and I'm not even expecting her to be that independent.

It seems she is currently more interested in making products than making art. Perhaps she was always this way and the idea of her as a true artist was just due to being surrounded by people who were (producers, supporting musicians, friends etc.). I think it's more likely that being famous and being deep in the industry both alienate you from real art.

I wish I could talk to her and challenge her to go back to being a real artist. I've spoken to members of S&P when I lived in Japan and I know that overall they still saw things from an artists perspective, so hopefully there will be someone who can push her to start challenging herself as an artist again instead of challenging herself as a business woman.

EDIT: After another listen and reflection, I think she is trying to balance art and product (and probably has been for the last few years). But the two can never be one. If it is 50% art, it is 50% product. It cannot be 100% art and 100% product. And if you ask me, 50% art is not a true attempt at anything artistic, its an attempt at using art to sell a more successful product. Even the original AMAGASA by TOKIO sounds like it had a bit more artistic intent on Ringo's part. I want to send Ringo to live with an African tribe for a few months, she would still be creating such amazing music if she left the context of the music industry.

Inseu · 2014.05.21, 08:25 PM

Writing 3 minute pop rock songs is her forte. Anyone who expect pretentious, unmelodious music from her is missing the point.

Stop putting KZK on pedestal. It is just orchestrated pop music.

lazer85 · 2014.05.21, 09:27 PM

For anyone who can agree, check out 小河（xiaohe） from mainland China, a lot of his albums are sloppy but his recent performances are really incredible.
Most recent album
http://233621.com/cn/xiaohe.aspx?id=102

Interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbvlaV7Ch2w

This is not off topic, I wish Ringo was working with people like this now that she has established herself

kalmia · 2014.05.21, 09:39 PM

KZK may only be orchestrated pop music but it is great orchestrated pop music.

hedgehog · 2014.05.21, 11:08 PM

Although I believe that much of pop music is a product, I disagree that Shiina Ringo is all about the business end. I also believe that pop music (not Rihanna/Rap/In the club) is often times better than supposed indie music or music written by "real artists."

Pop music isn't ashamed of what it is. It's generally a catchy song about something simple. Imo the worst artists are the ones like Radiohead who claim they are the "real" artists. There's often an over-stretching of emotions and emphasis on lyrics that are supposed to be deep.

I prefer Shiina Ringo writing pop songs with fun surprising moments rather than choosing to be a "real" artist. What if she had done KZK 2 to appease the fans and gave you all "Doppelganger", "Take Care", and "Over Anxiety"?

Scribble R · 2014.05.22, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by hedgehog

I prefer Shiina Ringo writing pop songs with fun surprising moments rather than choosing to be a "real" artist. What if she had done KZK 2 to appease the fans and gave you all "Doppelganger", "Take Care", and "Over Anxiety"?

I'd love it!

a_grumble_cake · 2014.05.22, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by FadedSun

?? Her voice was always shrill. It was one of the first things I noticed when I started listening to her; self-titled or Tokyo Jihen. It took me a while to get used to her voice before I decided I loved it. Not sure what you mean.

Not sure I would call it shrill but yeah, her voice was an acquired taste. I got used to it and I love it. However, her "new" voice is just too much for me, it's like listening to someone on speakerphone, which is pretty much my least favorite sound after nails on chalkboard.

FadedSun · 2014.05.22, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by lazer85

I wish I could talk to her and challenge her to go back to being a real artist.

Gigantic wall of text aside, I thought this was silly. "Real artist" according to your standards of what a musician should be? Shiina Ringo is most definitely a "real artist".

deadgrandma · 2014.05.22, 06:25 AM

Depends what constitutes text. If you're a person that considers only stuff like Sunn O))) art, then sure, Ringo is sellout garbage for the masses :-p

Maou · 2014.05.22, 08:50 AM

Dare I say I'm looking forward to listening to and reviewing this? I haven't done an actual review since I think Ultra C and some/many of these songs will be brand new to me or like new since I don't remember them.

Originally Posted by deadgrandma

I need Jihad's opinion on this album when it comes out. He better come back :-p

I'm afraid I've got some BAD NEWS...

I was going to mention it in a different thread... I don't think he's coming back. There was such a thick air of finality the last time I spoke to him. It's left me pretty upset and unable to respond to him. I've known this guy online for a decade. I read his posts in his voice even. Miss him like I miss JR.

2014.05.21, 08:00 PM	#201
lazer85 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 425	Perhaps some of your tolerance levels for cutesy and overproduced music is higher because many of you are into a lot of Japanese (pop). I've spent the last 2 years outside japan and away from Japanese music and I was never into pop music. It is rare to find someone who can make pop music that is also art, and even rarer to find one who can do it consistently. MOST of the "art" that we are familiar with is a product, some of it starts off pure and goes through a packaging process, but almost all mainstream pop is product from the start. You can be in denial all you want but there is a direct conflict between making art and producing a product. When you see the artistic product and what happens to it yourself, this distinction becomes much clearer. Art is always compromised when it becomes a product, and the level of compromise varies. Shiina Ringo seemed to be more of an artist that most of her peers and she also seemed to get away with very little compromise. The fascination with KZK is that it is her most pure work, least influenced by the idea of being a product. I think a certain level of compromise is forgivable for new artists when they are struggling to develop the means of making whatever it is they want to make. I think our massive disappointment comes from the fact that this woman we saw as a true artist actually turned out to be a pretty hardcore business woman, and yes the two are conflicting. She is respected enough in the industry to be calling the shots.... and she is! They are just not the calls an artist would make. Or perhaps they are the calls of an artist who is being influenced more by product (all the product-"artists" she has produced songs for) than by any real art. The idea behind this concept of working with different producers seems full of artistic intent, but she is surrounding herself with product-makers here, not artists (Otomo Yoshihide is the one exception that I recognize). I know some of you will still try and convince yourself that this is about her "well being" and that it's her right to make money, but it's pretty clear that Radiohead isn't struggling, and I'm not even expecting her to be that independent. It seems she is currently more interested in making products than making art. Perhaps she was always this way and the idea of her as a true artist was just due to being surrounded by people who were (producers, supporting musicians, friends etc.). I think it's more likely that being famous and being deep in the industry both alienate you from real art. I wish I could talk to her and challenge her to go back to being a real artist. I've spoken to members of S&P when I lived in Japan and I know that overall they still saw things from an artists perspective, so hopefully there will be someone who can push her to start challenging herself as an artist again instead of challenging herself as a business woman. EDIT: After another listen and reflection, I think she is trying to balance art and product (and probably has been for the last few years). But the two can never be one. If it is 50% art, it is 50% product. It cannot be 100% art and 100% product. And if you ask me, 50% art is not a true attempt at anything artistic, its an attempt at using art to sell a more successful product. Even the original AMAGASA by TOKIO sounds like it had a bit more artistic intent on Ringo's part. I want to send Ringo to live with an African tribe for a few months, she would still be creating such amazing music if she left the context of the music industry. Last edited by lazer85 : 2014.05.21 at 08:16 PM.

2014.05.22, 06:25 AM	#209
deadgrandma Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,764	Depends what constitutes text. If you're a person that considers only stuff like Sunn O))) art, then sure, Ringo is sellout garbage for the masses :-p __________________ Disco! Life is dead

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2014.05.21, 08:25 PM	#202
Inseu Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 1,707	Writing 3 minute pop rock songs is her forte. Anyone who expect pretentious, unmelodious music from her is missing the point. Stop putting KZK on pedestal. It is just orchestrated pop music.

2014.05.21, 09:27 PM	#203
lazer85 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 425	For anyone who can agree, check out 小河（xiaohe） from mainland China, a lot of his albums are sloppy but his recent performances are really incredible. Most recent album http://233621.com/cn/xiaohe.aspx?id=102 Interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbvlaV7Ch2w This is not off topic, I wish Ringo was working with people like this now that she has established herself

2014.05.21, 09:39 PM	#204
kalmia Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 321	KZK may only be orchestrated pop music but it is great orchestrated pop music.

2014.05.21, 11:08 PM	#205
hedgehog Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Bellingham Posts: 54	Although I believe that much of pop music is a product, I disagree that Shiina Ringo is all about the business end. I also believe that pop music (not Rihanna/Rap/In the club) is often times better than supposed indie music or music written by "real artists." Pop music isn't ashamed of what it is. It's generally a catchy song about something simple. Imo the worst artists are the ones like Radiohead who claim they are the "real" artists. There's often an over-stretching of emotions and emphasis on lyrics that are supposed to be deep. I prefer Shiina Ringo writing pop songs with fun surprising moments rather than choosing to be a "real" artist. What if she had done KZK 2 to appease the fans and gave you all "Doppelganger", "Take Care", and "Over Anxiety"?