The English Vibe

[pichuani]

A brief textual analysis of Shiina Ringo and Tokyo Jihen's English lyrics: http://divadamrau.blogspot.com/2011/...lish-vibe.html


Can't wait to hear what you folks have to say about these lyrics. ;>

[D.K.Liu]

To Ringo, English seems to be a medium through which she could express her most outrageous and/or out-of-this-world ideas and thoughts in an unrestrained manner.

Do you know Japanese? Most of us are unable to make such observations for the simple reason that we don't understand Japanese. For all we know, she may also be doing what you just described in Japanese.

[pichuani]

@ D. K. Liu

You've made a very good point indeed. True -- Ringo may well have expressed her intensity of thought in her Japanese lyrics as well. But my question then this: Does her intended meaning come across just as straightforward and easy to follow in Japanese as it is written directly in English?

A case in point is Marunouchi Sadistic (Expo ver.):
[Thanks to: http://www.nostalgic-lavender.net/ri...chi-expo.html]

Plug me into Marshall, [2] I’ll blow out your window
And trip my way up to eternal heights
RAT [3] and I will lay down and shake out your eardrums
A hit of this distortion makes me high

houshuu wa nyuushago heikousen de
toukyou wa aisedo nannimo nai
ryoushuusho kaite choudai
zeirishi nante tsuite inai korakuen [4]

The reward’s on the parallel lines after joining a company
I love Tokyo but there’s nothing there
Gimme a receipt
No tax accountants here Korakuen


Although the two stanzas are intense, they are still both comprehensible in general. Also, it is obvious that the one written in Japanese by default commands a subtler and more indirect frame of mind, as well as a more "encrypted" manner of expression, than the one in English.

In short, it seems that the use of Japanese lyrics may have predisposed Ringo into a more restrained style of written expression than when she writes in English.

[BlueApple]

I am going to be a jerk and say your comparisons are kind of invalid because 1) you didn't even cover all of her songs that are written in English and 2) Not all of Ringo/Jihen's English song lyrics are written by her. I'm going to make an assumption that a large part of that job has given to Robbie Clark or Jack Brown since they have both been listed as doing English translations for her lyrics.

Even more so, in your post you decided to compare the lyrics that are ONLY in Marunouchi Sadistic (EXPO version) instead of comparing the EXPO lyrics to translated lyrics of the original which I think would have made more sense.

Playing cops and robbers ’neath Ginza signs
All who chance to prosper shall go blind
Won’t you buy me a Ric to play
What I got ain’t enough to pay

I’ll play a riff

Plug me into Marshall, I’ll blow out your window
And trip my way up to eternal heights
RAT and I will lay down and shake out your eardrums
A hit of this distortion makes me high
------------------------------------
Lately been playing cops in Ginza
Even when you cross the border all glories must fade
Gimme a Rickenbacker 620
Don’t have the 190,000

Ochanomizu

It’s so rough I get off on the smell of the Marshall
Every night I’m just going to the top
Making one Rat the tools of my trade
And then I trip when Benzie reflects in my lungs

In the end, to say that her English lyrics are more "unrestrained" really does not work solely because Japanese is NOT your first language and things DO get lost in translation.

Also, I feel that in general English lyrics in general comes off as more straight-forward and Japanese lyrics when translated sound like some sort of bizarre poetry. Not always though...

[Nimh]

Originally Posted by BlueApple

Also, I feel that in general English lyrics in general comes off as more straight-forward and Japanese lyrics when translated sound like some sort of bizarre poetry. Not always though...

Well let's look at it from another angle.

Here's some of 17, translated from English to Japanese on this site:
http://homepage1.nifty.com/kumachan/ringo%2017.htm


あたしはただ哲学と放課後の時間が好きだった／
放課後はあたしだけの時間／
授業が終わりキュートな女の子たちはクールな男の子たちに出会う／
そうでない女の子はまっすぐおうちに帰っていく／
次から次へと泡のように溢れては消えていくくだらない話をしながら／
あたしは一人でうちに帰る／
名もなき人々の群れを眺めるのが好きだった／
地下鉄を乗り継いで、どこかへ行った／
そのどこかって「…どこでもないところ…」／


Check out the bolded lines. If I were to translate that into Japanese, it might look something like this:
Not so the girls who go straight home.
Over and over like foam they overflow and disappear making stupid talk
While I go home alone.

In English the line was:
While other girls go straight home
Talking ’bout soaps ’n’ that
I go home alone

Now we English speakers all know what "soaps" are, but it looks like the translator did not. The translator seemed to think that the girls were being compared to soap suds. Which is an interesting thought---I actually like the metaphor---but it's not the original English meaning.

If something like that can so easily bypass a Japanese translator of English, imagine how much we're missing trying to translate the Japanese.

[ecogazoo]

Don't "Jack Brown" and "Robbie Clark" sound like suspiciously generic Anglo names? And don't their lyrics/translations sometimes seem suspiciously awkward for native English speakers?

Of course there are plenty of Jack Browns and Robbie Clarks in the world, and Ringo would have final say in the final product, but those names and the lyrics raise a little red flag for me: I believe "Jack Brown" and "Robbie Clark" are pseudonyms for Ringo/Ukigumo.

[Orenji]

Originally Posted by ecogazoo

Don't "Jack Brown" and "Robbie Clark" sound like suspiciously generic Anglo names? And don't their lyrics/translations sometimes seem suspiciously awkward for native English speakers?

Of course there are plenty of Jack Browns and Robbie Clarks in the world, and Ringo would have final say in the final product, but those names and the lyrics raise a little red flag for me: I believe "Jack Brown" and "Robbie Clark" are pseudonyms for Ringo/Ukigumo.

I believed that all the time, I'm glad someone else pointed that out!

[Glathannus]

I am considering the possibility that real people with those names got hired because of some positive stereotyping involving what their names imply - that these people are culturally-relevant English speakers, due to how tightly-integrated you would expect people of such names to be.

It's not that the goal is to actually reach out to ordinary English speakers - it's that "culturally relevant" English must automatically be cooler than the most academically-qualified English. If the names had nothing to do with who got selected for translating Shiina Ringo's lyrics, then I'm sure it's happened with another Japanese musician or two.

But yeah, in Shiina Ringo's case, pseudonyms wouldn't surprise me.

[pichuani]

Thanks for your input, BlueApple -- you certainly are not a jerk. I appreciate the points you made about the song lyrics.

Originally Posted by BlueApple

I am going to be a jerk and say your comparisons are kind of invalid because 1) you didn't even cover all of her songs that are written in English and 2) Not all of Ringo/Jihen's English song lyrics are written by her. I'm going to make an assumption that a large part of that job has given to Robbie Clark or Jack Brown since they have both been listed as doing English translations for her lyrics.

>> (1) While covering all her songs with English lyrics would indeed be more revealing, it would also be quite daunting to do it all on my own. I was hoping to state what I could see so far as a point of departure, and others like Nimh who have extensive knowledge of the Japanese knowledge (or any other related knowledge) might want to fill in the missing gaps (Thanks Nimh -- you've done exactly that, BTW ;>). In short, my views are meant to be suggestive only -- not definitive. I would greatly appreciate it if you would consider taking on other tracks with lines in English and let us know what your analysis is -- this is how our knowledgebase of Ringo and TJ's music and its meaning could really grow.


>> (2) I am not aware of that -- thanks for that info.

My question then is: Why bother with translating those Japanese-based thoughts into English song lyrics then?

Originally Posted by BlueApple

Even more so, in your post you decided to compare the lyrics that are ONLY in Marunouchi Sadistic (EXPO version) instead of comparing the EXPO lyrics to translated lyrics of the original which I think would have made more sense.

In the end, to say that her English lyrics are more "unrestrained" really does not work solely because Japanese is NOT your first language and things DO get lost in translation.

>> I see your point here -- and I agree it would be an interesting attempt to compare the two versions of the same track.

But why keep part of the lyrics in Japanese even when English is dominant within the same song then? Could it be that one language is better at conveying specific types of concepts and ideas than the other one? This boils down to the relationships between language and thought:

(a) To what extent is the expression of one's thoughts enhanced or limited by the particular language (s)he uses to get her point(s) across?

(b) Because of differences in the cultures and world views that different language are founded upon, the language one chooses to encode one's ideas also inevitably poses certain constraints on the kinds of ideas and thoughts that one could effectively convey via its help.

You're right in saying that Japanese is not my first language, and that things do get lost in translation -- and that's why we need expertise from others like Nimh to show us that Japanese does involve more complex sentence structures in expressing an otherwise relatively simple idea in English.

Originally Posted by BlueApple

Also, I feel that in general English lyrics in general comes off as more straight-forward and Japanese lyrics when translated sound like some sort of bizarre poetry. Not always though...

>> I agree that this is not always the case -- but at least it appears so oftentimes ... :>

[frecklegirl]

Originally Posted by Nimh

If something like that can so easily bypass a Japanese translator of English, imagine how much we're missing trying to translate the Japanese.

Just because something bypassed ONE EN->JP translator who did not research properly, does not mean that JP->EN translators who DO know that proper research--and consulting with native speakers when necessary/to proofread--is key, must also necessarily be missing tons of information. You also don't take into account how much time that person spent making the Japanese translation; maybe he/she just banged it out. I certainly don't work that hastily and I attempt to be as thorough as I can. To suggest that my intensive process, for example, is just as flawed as ONE other person's simply because he/she made a mistake... that is a really illogical corollary.
(Of course, I'm sure my translations have flaws and things I've missed just like that, but I don't believe it should be automatically thought of as the case by default that there will be flaws simply because one other person made a mistake.)

Originally Posted by ecogazoo

Don't "Jack Brown" and "Robbie Clark" sound like suspiciously generic Anglo names? And don't their lyrics/translations sometimes seem suspiciously awkward for native English speakers?

Of course there are plenty of Jack Browns and Robbie Clarks in the world, and Ringo would have final say in the final product, but those names and the lyrics raise a little red flag for me: I believe "Jack Brown" and "Robbie Clark" are pseudonyms for Ringo/Ukigumo.

I don't think this is true simply because Ringo-written English (one step away from Engrish) is so vastly different from the fluent, natural English produced by the Robbie Clark/Jack Brown native speakers team. And as far as I know, she didn't take two years off to go do an intensive English study abroad, so her skills would not have suddenly LEAPED up to native speaker level randomly. Yes, she did go to England, but not for long enough to get to THAT level.

Ukigumo, secretly fluent in English? Don't make me laugh.