Go Back   Electric Mole Forums > Shiina Ringo & Tokyo Jihen > Main Forum
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Main Forum The place for general discussion. Old news and speculation, polls, trivia, memorabilia, favorite songs, and so on.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 2015.09.08, 01:33 PM   #31
a_grumble_cake
Senior Member
 
a_grumble_cake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 663
a_grumble_cake deserves a fucking medal
Default

These days I think Koko de and Gips are cute - they are young, feminine and charming. Back when I first discovered her after watching the PV for Meisai, Koko de was the first song I found of hers and it totally turned me off her, it just sounded like a generic Alanis Morisette rip off to me so I just closed the browser window and forgot about her for a while.

It's incredibly difficult for me to be objective about any of her early stuff, it's too caught up in nostalgia and other feelings.
__________________
"Forklifts are cute!"
-Kameda Seiji October 25, 2009
a_grumble_cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.09, 07:29 AM   #32
Osiris12345
Senior Member
 
Osiris12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: By the Side of the River
Posts: 793
Osiris12345 deserves a fucking medal
Default

When I first heard Gibs and Koko I was very dismissive of them as generic tunes, especially Gibs. It wasn't until I gave them another listen that I discovered there's actually some really good songwriting going on there. And Dynamite Out absolutely brought out the best that Koko had to offer. Also kinda agreed on the whole sounding like "Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me" thing. I never thought about how similar they are until now. Think Ringo was a Batman Forever fan?

Also I'm gonna fight you on GX, Maou. You brought up good points about how the songs aren't as good on a technical level but performance-wise I think they're fine for the most part (although I can't argue in favor of GX Izonshou, I just.... can't). Nagoshi is a great guitarist and did some great guitar work on the album but Yayoshi brings good live energy to the setlist. I think of it kind of like if late 70's - early 80's Johnny Ramone played some Ringo songs. Early Johnny Ramone is a pretty shitty guitarist. He's sloppy and if you give him a song with more than three chords in it he'll look at it like you gave him a note in Chinese. The GX songs are stripped down, given more simple arrangements, the solos are only a few notes/chords, and they're made kind of more "punk". Especially something like Aozora. Kyogenshou suffers a little because the appeal of that song WAS the complex arrangement but I don't look at it like a complete travesty.
__________________
To not know is a form of knowing.
Osiris12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.09, 09:57 AM   #33
zeroryouko
Ringophile
 
zeroryouko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: La La Land
Posts: 629
zeroryouko raises the standards of what a community can offer
Default

There is just *something* about GX that seems to be missing from Ringo's other live DVDs. There's a certain freshness and optimism, and at the same time, rawness, to Ringo's performance. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it was her first "big" tour, and it just seems like you can feel her excitement about it. It also kind of feels like GX is the last of her performances before she completely accepted, in her own mind, that she was a star.

I don't think the various instrumental performances are by any means bad (though I'm not really a good judge of that), but the instrumentation is really secondary to Ringo herself. GX is about Ringo getting up there and absolutely wailing. Sure, maybe her voice was not yet at its technical peak. But again, there's just something so fresh and raw about it.
__________________
There are 2 kinds of J-Pop: Shiina Ringo, and everyone else.

Last edited by zeroryouko : 2015.09.09 at 10:23 AM.
zeroryouko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.09, 07:30 PM   #34
deadgrandma
Senior Member
 
deadgrandma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,764
deadgrandma knows what you did last summerdeadgrandma knows what you did last summerdeadgrandma knows what you did last summer
Default

I don't really know whether or not this belongs here, but reading this got me thinking about an aspect of Ringo's career that has been quite hotly debated in the past and will always be a thing that will be discussed-

Her rearrangements.

What I mean is that one of the major complaints I have seen over the years are those about her changing up songs- say, for example- the change between Tsumi to Batsu from the original studio version to the Expo 08 James Bond version. I have always struggled to see WHY rearranging things should be seen as a negative- OK, sure I get personal taste may stop a person enjoying a new arrangement (see my comments on Expo 14 Souretsu)- but I always do appreciate the fact that they've gone to the effort of giving us a new arrangement instead of playing what we have on CD over and over again.

I mean, how much worse would all them rearrangements of Marounichi Sadistic have been if they WEREN'T rearranged??? It would have been so damn tedious!

Her rearrangements, to me, were one of the best things about her career. It's a pity she is getting a bit lazy with her newer material, the Expo 14 Sunny stuff is pretty much 1:1 with the CD. Maybe this new tour she'll do something new. But I just doubt it. Not like before anyway.
__________________
Disco! Life is dead
deadgrandma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.10, 11:20 AM   #35
Maou
Senior Member
 
Maou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Happy Valley
Posts: 3,226
Maou knows what you did last summerMaou knows what you did last summer
Default

Osiris, first it's good to see you again, buddy. You're not here enough.

Secondly, I'm mad at you for making me listen to some of GX again.

Originally Posted by Osiris12345 View Post
Nagoshi is a great guitarist and did some great guitar work on the album but Yayoshi brings good live energy to the setlist.
Nagoshi only played Kyogenshou, Tsuki ni Makeinu and Honnou so those are the only fair comparisons. I'll take the album versions of Kyogenshou and Tsuki (even over the Dynamite version) while I'll take the Expo '08 version of Honnou. Susumu Nishikawa did most of the guitar work in the MM/SS. If you think Yayoshi brought good energy (I don't), you should listen to Nishikawa during Senkou Ecstasy. Same arrangements, but with an actual guitarist who can carry his weight in the band.

I'm not sure where you can say Yayoshi brings energy. During Zazen Ecstasy? Maybe. GX? I'm not hearing it. He's just a pale imitation of Nishikawa. The mixing is even actively trying to hide him behind Muraishi and Kameda. He doesn't even get a volume boost during his solos! If he can't even get the spotlight during a solo, how can he possibly be bringing anything to the table? Shiina, Muraishi and Kameda are clearly carrying the show with Yayoshi and the keyboardist just being along for the ride. Ringo herself outplays him on guitar.

Originally Posted by Osiris12345 View Post
I think of it kind of like if late 70's - early 80's Johnny Ramone played some Ringo songs. Early Johnny Ramone is a pretty shitty guitarist. He's sloppy and if you give him a song with more than three chords in it he'll look at it like you gave him a note in Chinese. The GX songs are stripped down, given more simple arrangements, the solos are only a few notes/chords, and they're made kind of more "punk". Especially something like Aozora. Kyogenshou suffers a little because the appeal of that song WAS the complex arrangement but I don't look at it like a complete travesty.
Even if we ignore the simplified arrangements... It's not even just the lack of technical skill during GX; Yayoshi's Les Paul tone is dreadful. It's a weak distortion with no dynamics behind it and he uses it for all but two songs. I've never heard a good guitar sound so... flat. For real, listen to opening riff of Keikoku on GX as one of the most glaring examples. Nishikawa crunches that shit on the album while Yayoshi sounds like he's playing through babby's first distortion pedal.

Johnny Ramone, James Williamson or any other punk rock guitarist would have been embarrassed to be playing with a tone like that. I likely would agree with you if Yayoshi sounded like this during GX:

The Ramones - I Wanna Be Sedated


but he doesn't and doesn't come anywhere close to that. No crunch, no drive. Just bland distortion. It's better when he breaks out the Jazzmaster, but that's only Marunouchi Sadistic during GX.

(although I can't argue in favor of GX Izonshou, I just.... can't)
Good because that's the biggest disappointment of the show. Perhaps this will shed a little more light on my opinion or allow some to disregard it completely:

I had already listened to Electric Mole several times before listening to GX. Perhaps disappointment was inevitable after so many GDLK performances on EM? Regardless, this was before the days of Jpopsuki or torrents so I was downloading songs from Napster or eMule or something like that one at a time. My first GX song was Izonshou. I'll never forget the disappointment I felt after the song finished? "That's it? Fuck was that?"

Originally Posted by zeroryouko View Post
I don't think the various instrumental performances are by any means bad (though I'm not really a good judge of that), but the instrumentation is really secondary to Ringo herself.
I give up. Nothing against you personally as I like your posts. I just don't really know what to say to people who put the woman above the whole of the music without coming off as a giant prick.

I'll never get people projecting their thoughts on how much Ringo is having fun on stage compared to other shows either.

Originally Posted by deadgrandma View Post
I have always struggled to see WHY rearranging things should be seen as a negative
It's not. You hit it here:

Originally Posted by deadgrandma View Post
OK, sure I get personal taste may stop a person enjoying a new arrangement.
The fan base loves rearrangements when they're actually good. See Zazen Ecstasy for the best examples in Tsumiki Asobi and Yokushitsu.
__________________
I'd rather have a life of "oh wells" than a life of "what ifs"
Maou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.10, 01:29 PM   #36
zeroryouko
Ringophile
 
zeroryouko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: La La Land
Posts: 629
zeroryouko raises the standards of what a community can offer
Default

Originally Posted by Maou View Post
I just don't really know what to say to people who put the woman above the whole of the music without coming off as a giant prick.

I'll never get people projecting their thoughts on how much Ringo is having fun on stage compared to other shows either.
By the same token, I don't quite get how people can watch someone perform and *not* empathize. If not for the ability to share in the performance, why have live music at all? Why have any music that isn't computer-generated? Some people may tend more toward one side of the spectrum than the other, but ultimately I don't think it's possible to completely draw a line between "fan of Ringo's music" and "fan of Ringo".

I think maybe what you're implying is that there is a difference between the "musical" and the "non-musical" fan; the former being a person who has some significant talent/education/experience in creating or analyzing music. I will cheerfully concede this point. There are aspects of the whole of the music, as you say, that cannot be appreciated by those who are not, at minimum, serious music fans in general. As a non-musical individual, I realize that there's a lot I'm not getting - but there's also still a lot to appreciate.

All of which being said - I'm absolutely *not* saying the GX is her best performance - just that there's something to appreciate in most of her performances, and that context can sometimes be almost as important as content.
__________________
There are 2 kinds of J-Pop: Shiina Ringo, and everyone else.
zeroryouko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.10, 02:52 PM   #37
a_grumble_cake
Senior Member
 
a_grumble_cake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 663
a_grumble_cake deserves a fucking medal
Default

Originally Posted by deadgrandma View Post
Her rearrangements.

What I mean is that one of the major complaints I have seen over the years are those about her changing up songs- say, for example- the change between Tsumi to Batsu from the original studio version to the Expo 08 James Bond version.
I love rearrangements, my problem is she rearranges stuff to sound like the same broadway/james bond/lounge music/bossa nova range she's infatuated with but I'm very tired of. If she rearranged Tsumi to Batsu as electronica... I am here for that. But I don't need any more elevator music.
__________________
"Forklifts are cute!"
-Kameda Seiji October 25, 2009
a_grumble_cake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.11, 02:49 AM   #38
gekokujyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 683
gekokujyo knows what you did last summergekokujyo knows what you did last summer
Default

Originally Posted by zeroryouko View Post
By the same token, I don't quite get how people can watch someone perform and *not* empathize. If not for the ability to share in the performance, why have live music at all? Why have any music that isn't computer-generated? Some people may tend more toward one side of the spectrum than the other, but ultimately I don't think it's possible to completely draw a line between "fan of Ringo's music" and "fan of Ringo".
This basically sums up what I feel about her most of the time. And why I loved Expo 14 so much even though it's ummm, I dunno, somehow musically bad? (I don't even)
gekokujyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.14, 08:07 AM   #39
zordon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 106
zordon is headed in the right direction
Default

Don't get me wrong, I learned a lot from the posters here, I like the insight some folks bring to the table, technical stuff I never paid attention to.

But sometimes people here sound so elitist that it just seems as if one note off or one line sang out of tune is enough of a reason for them to completely dismiss a song, an artist, or even the overall musical output and go completely ballistic.
zordon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015.09.14, 02:09 PM   #40
zeroryouko
Ringophile
 
zeroryouko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: La La Land
Posts: 629
zeroryouko raises the standards of what a community can offer
Default

I don't think people on here are elitist. I just think that in general, once a person develops to the point where they are capable of analyzing something technically, it becomes difficult or impossible for them not to do so.

For example: I work in construction. After doing that for a few years, I suddenly realized that in every building I went into, even if it was unrelated to work, I was looking at the quality of the construction materials and installation. Like, I'd sit next to the window in a restaurant, and instead of looking outside, I'd first notice what kind of glass was used and how it was installed.

I imagine listening to music is much the same for the musically talented - once activated, the analytical part of the brain can't just be turned off.
__________________
There are 2 kinds of J-Pop: Shiina Ringo, and everyone else.
zeroryouko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Demo tape thoughts. karateexplosion Main Forum 15 2014.05.22 03:33 PM
Shiina Ringo's popularity amongst Japan's older generations matan-san Main Forum 11 2012.02.02 03:43 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:53 PM.