Musical properties of Shiina Ringo's music -music theory experts please help

[Entry№1]

Originally Posted by justriiingo

Entry#1 I'm pretty sure you're referring to the harmonic minor scale...

Nope. I had actually only heard brief mention of the harmonic major scale until recently. I guess the harmonic minor is much more popular. Who knows? It might be a whole new world of unexplored possibilities.

[so_cold]

Marunouchi and Cappuccino are two songs that interested me too. I think they're just in the natural major key, no? I don't hear any flat 6th notes in the melody in those particular songs (Ab in the C major scale ) but they are in the accompaniment, as part of major III(7) chords as DK Liu notices earlier. Sometimes she does add very interesting off-scale, off-chord melody notes that are hard to recall though (I'm pretty sure Keshou Naoshi has at least one).

Hatsukoi Shoujo does exploit the flat 6th in the melody over the major III chord in the same DeBarge I Like It progression, (IVmaj7 - III7 - vi... Cappuccino diverges after that). It's that beautiful swooning sound in the beginning of the chorus, "ana - ta... (no namae wo etc)".

It's not so uncommon in interesting pop music to have a chord out of scale and then if the melody nears that chord's chromatic notes, pass through those notes rather than one from the home key which would sound more semitone-dissonant. I don't know enough theory to explain it in theory terms though. An extreme example of this is Thief's Atlantic (and lots of jazzy drum and bass) which almost seems to change scale or mode with each chord in the verse (total diversion with only minor relevance to SR: an interesting thread about the use of chromatic chords and melodies that fit them in neo-soul music).

Originally Posted by Entry№1

I guess the harmonic minor is much more popular. Who knows? It might be a whole new world of unexplored possibilities.

That's what I think about music theory too, an inspiring repository of ideas from all the people that have made music before you!

[Marty256]

Originally Posted by justriiingo

TJ 1.0 sounded quite a lot more dissonant than SR's solo tunes (eg. Ekimae), probably HZM's contribution? Genjitsu no Oite was written by him and has a similar dissonant sound.

I think GnO started off as an improvisation sort of based around the chords for Genjitsu wo Warau, and then properly written in later on when he refined it. so that dissonance was probably just him fiddling around and being a typical piano player. but I agree about phase 1 TJ being nice and dissonant, I think that band had an uncontrollable rawness that doesn't really happen anymore.
I can't get over how much more interesting the compositions on Kyoiku are compared to the rest of the TJ albums. Genjitsu wo Warau has this mindblowing pre-chorus progression that almost seems to defy any diatonic logic, yet still sounds beautiful. the diminished chords in Ekimae linger for so long but never sound out of place. in the bar before the chorus in Yume no Ato, an E chord comes out of nowhere, and suddenly the whole tune modulates, yet it all comes together perfectly. I could probably sit here for hours analysing Shiina's music...

Originally Posted by justriingo

TJ 2.0 certainly has a more predictable sound. The chorus of Keshou Naoshi, for example, feels like an exercise in writing suspensions... though later it goes to a vi9 chord (i think it comes in in the beginning of the 4th phrase of the chorus, -ima, watashi no something something...) which is probably my favourite moment in the whole tune. It then resolves to an imperfect cadence ii - V. I never really liked the sound of that V at the end, I could never figure out why.

Yeah, I dig that. Keshou Naoshi is a massive indulgence in 7th and 9th melody notes over maj7 and min7 chords, both of which are great sounds. the progression though, particularly over the verse, is very stereotypically latin. I used to think Yukiguni was pretty impressive as a composition but on closer inspection it's just fancy usage of ascending chromatic stuff.

[so_cold]

Originally Posted by Marty256

... Genjitsu wo Warau has this mindblowing pre-chorus progression that almost seems to defy any diatonic logic, yet still sounds beautiful. the diminished chords in Ekimae linger for so long but never sound out of place. in the bar before the chorus in Yume no Ato, an E chord comes out of nowhere, and suddenly the whole tune modulates, yet it all comes together perfectly. I could probably sit here for hours analysing Shiina's music...

Please do, and go into as much detail as you like!

This kind of analysis is so interesting to read. I do wonder if there's an Alan Pollack in Japan studying every SR song as he did with the Beatles.*


* I should acknowledge that Jihad posted the Pollack link first on the Beatles thread.

[Scribble R]

Refreshing post, Marty, even if I understood only about 5 per cent of it. Wish there were more of its kind.

Originally Posted by Marty256

Speaking of jazz, whenever Shiina's music breaks into swing or some other 'jazz' style I have to stop listening. she doesn't have much capacity for having great swing or groove when it comes to that. That's probably TJ's fault as much as anyones,

Funny you say this. I was in the library two days ago, and randomly picked up Alyn Shipton's 'A New History of Jazz'. He mentions how in the early 1900s, a lot of music were mislabelled jazz because they had some superficially jazz characteristic and they all lacked swing. SR/TJ immediately came to mind here, because although I don't know very much about the technical aspects of jazz, whenever something vaguely 'jazzy' of SR/TJ comes on, I'm unconvinced for some reason. Maybe it sounds...novelty...or something.

Oh, and saying that...I think SR has mentioned not being able to 'do jazz' (and country), and in the 3min interviews she talks about trying to 'train' the band to swing or get into groove or whatever crap.

[Marty256]

Originally Posted by Scribble R

Refreshing post, Marty, even if I understood only about 5 per cent of it. Wish there were more of its kind.

Thanks I think one of the main reasons I came to EM was to talk about the music in detail! yes, I am that much of a music nerd.

Originally Posted by Scribble R

...SR/TJ immediately came to mind here, because although I don't know very much about the technical aspects of jazz, whenever something vaguely 'jazzy' of SR/TJ comes on, I'm unconvinced for some reason. Maybe it sounds...novelty...or something.

Oh, and saying that...I think SR has mentioned not being able to 'do jazz' (and country), and in the 3min interviews she talks about trying to 'train' the band to swing or get into groove or whatever crap.

Yeah, some good points here. To really look at 'swing' in detail you have to trace it back to its African-American roots, which involve the whole free-form sort of chain gang song, and (I am sort of generalising/speculating here, but) because the singers would have been so far apart, it would have been hard to stay in time; so I think traditionally swing music has, or is meant to, have this looseness about it, and often the best swingers make rhythmic mistakes OR play 'outside the time'. I hate to sound elitist or prejudiced here again but early white jazz musicians understood jazz phrasing wrong, especially because they had just broken new ground after eras upon eras of classical music. you have to find the right niche to swing like a badass, jazz musicians often call that niche place 'in the pocket.' (listen to some Count Basie Big Band if you want to hear some real in the pocket swing music!)
Basically, SR/TJ hasn't found that yet, and I wonder whether it's got to do with how much American swing they listen to or what they've learnt as musicians. after visiting places like Disk Union in Shinjuku, I can see the Japanese are raving mad about jazz, but I haven't heard of a great torrent of good jazz musicians from there - with the exception of people like Hiromi Uehara (who studied at Berkeley), Sadao Watanabe and Masahiko Satoh. This sort of leads me to think that the whole country hasn't really understood all facets of jazz yet, so when they try to swing, it generally ends up sounding artificial, or 'novelty' as you so rightly put it!
Having said that, I think they are able to get a good 'L.A. studio big band' sound. i won't go into the history too much but the difference between East Coast and West Coast jazz is that West Coast is a more 'commercial' sound (think highly refined studio recordings without any mistakes, all tight and perfectly in time, but swinging like mad) and East Coast was home to the 'cool' movement (think Miles Davis-esque relaxed jazz, and I often associate East Coast with mistakes or weird note choices, and in jazz, mistakes are awesome). Just listen to the big band arrangement of Sid to Hakuchuumu on Shiina's B sides album and you'll hear a fine example of Japanese L.A. big band sound, that of the Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra. you can hear how it swings like mad, but it's so calculated and refined, it never sounds earthy or relaxed; SR/TJ seem to be aiming more towards the cool jazz area, particularly bebop (fast swing) styles and so on. that's probably through Shiina's Ella Fitzgerald influence, only the rest of the band sort of lacks that easy swing vibe.

Also on the topic of jazz, the concept of improvising/solos is something i think about when listening to TJ. I get the fact that they're a pop band, so their fans want to hear the songs how they know them, but I can't help wondering whether, when the band plays live, members like Ukigumo and Kameda actually feel comfortable soloing right off the bat, from scratch. I say this because whenever a song opens up for a guitar solo or whatever on stage, usually Uki plays exactly what is on the record. does this mean he wrote out a solo to play on the record? or he improvised in the studio and then had to learn that exact solo? obviously he's a very talented guitarist so I'm thinking that he's just doing that to keep the fans happy. Hiirama was more or less the same, but I think once or twice he changed things up. Iwata often does the same solos too, but I've heard him do different things on some tracks, and the version of Marunouchi on JCHI starts off with this amazing solo from him.

phew!

[Entry№1]

I don't think you're coming across as racist intentionally, but I personally believe 'swing' predates written musical history, or at least wasn't recorded for hundreds (if not thousands) of years after it was developed. It can't be boxed into a single genre, musician, or time period. I think pretty much any time you synchronize music with some sort of repetitive physical activity, swing comes out...
And I'm not trying to be arrogant by saying this, but I find it somewhat strange that you talk about swing in such minute detail (i.e. something that varies from person to person) but give examples of proper swing using big band orchestras. Wouldn't individual musicians, acting independent of a conductor, swing with better sincerity? I mean, it seems like the swing of a conductor gets diffused through his band, particularly if it is a larger one. Not that that detail really matters to me. If it's got a good composition and the swing is appropriate to the meaning of the song (musically or otherwise), I can swing to it. I personally find funk to have the biggest physical resonance with me anyway. Big band doesn't generally scratch my itch.
Besides, a lot of Ringo's jazz-ish music isn't meant to be straight-forward ANYTHING. I would even go so far as to say songs like "Mayonaka wa Junketsu" weren't meant to reference traditional big band at all, but rather channel the charisma and sexuality of old anime like Lupin. Jazz greats aside, Ringo admittedly became attached to this style of music through contemporary musicians like Yuji Ohno (who she explicitly stated was an influence) and it's pop cultural manifestation of anime. Whatever influences Yuji Ohno or Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra may have had themselves, Ringo was writing anime music, not to be compared with the stylings and ideology of traditional jazz or big band.

Originally Posted by Scribble R

Oh, and saying that...I think SR has mentioned not being able to 'do jazz' (and country), and in the 3min interviews she talks about trying to 'train' the band to swing or get into groove or whatever crap.

I think what Ringo was talking about in that recent interview about "Sports" was totally legit. I believe good swing satisfies a raw physical rhythm. It makes you want to get up and dance, or sing your heart out. It's logical to think that certain members of the group are more likely to think about music in such physical terms than others, given their diverse music experiences.

[justriiingo]

Originally Posted by Marty256

...I can see the Japanese are raving mad about jazz, but I haven't heard of a great torrent of good jazz musicians from there - with the exception of people like Hiromi Uehara (who studied at Berkeley), Sadao Watanabe and Masahiko Satoh.

SOIL&"PIMP"SESSIONS. I'm sure you know them. They did a few tracks with SR - which are only okay - but their own material is excellent. And they put up a mean live show. Oh god I love them to bits. Motoharu (sax) channels Pharoah Sanders in his playing, very hard and nasty. Josei's piano is funky as hell, and drummer Midorin can somehow find space within all the madness to do his thing, on top of keeping time! Just don't know why their collaborations with SR somehow always fell a little short.

Since you mentioned Hiromi Uehara, I'm just gonna say that I love her piano pieces, they're delicate yet so intense and full of music. However, I'm completely lost when she does her prog jazz thing. The music is so thick and everyone in her band is improvising at the same time, I just don't know what to listen to anymore.

Originally Posted by Marty256

Also on the topic of jazz, the concept of improvising/solos is something i think about when listening to TJ. I get the fact that they're a pop band, so their fans want to hear the songs how they know them, but I can't help wondering whether, when the band plays live, members like Ukigumo and Kameda actually feel comfortable soloing right off the bat, from scratch. I say this because whenever a song opens up for a guitar solo or whatever on stage, usually Uki plays exactly what is on the record. does this mean he wrote out a solo to play on the record? or he improvised in the studio and then had to learn that exact solo? obviously he's a very talented guitarist so I'm thinking that he's just doing that to keep the fans happy. Hiirama was more or less the same, but I think once or twice he changed things up. Iwata often does the same solos too, but I've heard him do different things on some tracks, and the version of Marunouchi on JCHI starts off with this amazing solo from him.

And Uki doesn't improvise because he doesn't know how to. To be fair, many qualified musicians also don't know how to. If you're playing in orchestras you don't need to know how to. It's a completely different skill set, very instinctive and requires a great feel for music and also, I think, trust.
Although I'm unqualified to make this next statement, I'm gonna say it anyway. Ukigumo's sound is not suitable for SR's jazzy experiments. That guy doesn't have a funky bone in his body, and his contributions to the music have been mechanical and out of place. How he manages that, I have no idea, but he's managed to piss off me and a bunch of other fans on this forum with his, urm, virtuosic flair. If Uki were forced to improv I'll bet he'll play the same 2 (mayyybe 3) notes over and over again.

Anywayyyy. Marty have you heard Juuwaki no Naka before? It's an SR demo, and possibly the purest SR song. To me that's the most interesting piece of music that SR has written so far that has seen the public light. The chords go all over the places in to keys they're not supposed to go to (in the narrow classical music theory definition), and then she uses a minor dominant chord, and the does the chromatic descending bassline thing, also chromatic passing chords, just all these little things that pop up whenever you least expect them. If you have synaesthesia (I don't) I presume you would find the song changing colour all the time because she uses the whole gamut of chords. Above the madness you find a sweet sweet melody. That's what SR's music is to me - little surprises. But it hasn't been like that for a long time.

[Marty256]

Originally Posted by Entry№1

I don't think you're coming across as racist intentionally, but I personally believe 'swing' predates written musical history, or at least wasn't recorded for hundreds (if not thousands) of years after it was developed. It can't be boxed into a single genre, musician, or time period. I think pretty much any time you synchronize music with some sort of repetitive physical activity, swing comes out...
And I'm not trying to be arrogant by saying this, but I find it somewhat strange that you talk about swing in such minute detail (i.e. something that varies from person to person) but give examples of proper swing using big band orchestras. Wouldn't individual musicians, acting independent of a conductor, swing with better sincerity? I mean, it seems like the swing of a conductor gets diffused through his band, particularly if it is a larger one. Not that that detail really matters to me. If it's got a good composition and the swing is appropriate to the meaning of the song (musically or otherwise), I can swing to it. I personally find funk to have the biggest physical resonance with me anyway. Big band doesn't generally scratch my itch.

Yeah, you're right with all this, I think I was just going off on a tangent. I gave the example of the Basie band just because off the top of my head that was a marvellous example of loose, amazing swing. on second thoughts, yeah, each individual has their own sense of swing and so on. it's just that the band dynamic plays a big part in how hard something swings. The Basie band didn't have a conductor though, each member just felt it. And yeah, I was just talking about swing as generally as I could - you're right, there is heaps of different types of it and has been for ages. I guess you could even consider dotted-quaver-semiquaver groupings to be swing, of which there were a lot of during the Romantic period.
I actually agree with you about big band too. I can't really listen to big band much

Originally Posted by Entry№1

Besides, a lot of Ringo's jazz-ish music isn't meant to be straight-forward ANYTHING. I would even go so far as to say songs like "Mayonaka wa Junketsu" weren't meant to reference traditional big band at all, but rather channel the charisma and sexuality of old anime like Lupin.
Jazz greats aside, Ringo admittedly became attached to this style of music through contemporary musicians like Yuji Ohno (who she explicitly stated was an influence) and it's pop cultural manifestation of anime. Whatever influences Yuji Ohno or Tokyo Ska Paradise Orchestra may have had themselves, Ringo was writing anime music, not to be compared with the stylings and ideology of traditional jazz or big band.

Yeah, Mayonaka is a ska tune through and through. Nothing to do with big band at all really, more sort of like a fleshed out ensemble with horns and such. Sid to Hachukuumu however is definitely an L.A. big band sound. I'd probably go as far to say that anime themes/music was influenced by the big band sound of the West Coast, especially if that is an example of 'anime music'. there's no denying that sort of sound. what would be the definition of 'anime music' in any case?

Originally Posted by justriiingo

SOIL&"PIMP"SESSIONS. I'm sure you know them.

Oh yeah! i've heard good stuff about them. I should definitely check them out, when I get a chance.

Originally Posted by justriiingo

Since you mentioned Hiromi Uehara, I'm just gonna say that I love her piano pieces, they're delicate yet so intense and full of music. However, I'm completely lost when she does her prog jazz thing. The music is so thick and everyone in her band is improvising at the same time, I just don't know what to listen to anymore.

I definitely know what you mean. The guys in the band are all great, but it just seems so...mechanical, and the whole progressiveness of her compositions are often a bit contrived. I kind of liked her album 'Spiral' though.

Originally Posted by justriiingo

Marty have you heard Juuwaki no Naka before? It's an SR demo, and possibly the purest SR song. To me that's the most interesting piece of music that SR has written so far that has seen the public light. The chords go all over the places in to keys they're not supposed to go to (in the narrow classical music theory definition), and then she uses a minor dominant chord, and the does the chromatic descending bassline thing, also chromatic passing chords, just all these little things that pop up whenever you least expect them. If you have synaesthesia (I don't) I presume you would find the song changing colour all the time because she uses the whole gamut of chords. Above the madness you find a sweet sweet melody. That's what SR's music is to me - little surprises. But it hasn't been like that for a long time.

Whoaaa, where can i get my hands on this?? it sounds amazing. quite possibly one of the few remaining works by Shiina that haven't reached my ears yet...

To change the subject a bit, I listened to some or Rie Tomosaka's music the other day for the first time - namely Cappucino and Shoujo Robot, just to see if I could hear any Ringo-isms. I'm sure something in those songs triggered my Ringo senses, i'm just not sure what! Thoughts?

[Entry№1]

^ There are actually quite a few Ringo songs that were never released but leaked somehow or another. Most of these are either from bootlegs or her demotapes. Many of these can be found on YouTube. My personal favorite unreleased demotape track is probably "Orgel", but there are plenty more. The number of unreleased recordings remains a mystery though.
I am a huge fan of the songs Ringo has written for other singers, particularly for Tomosaka Rie. Other hidden gems are "Private" for Hirosue Ryoko and the songs she wrote for TOKIO and Puffy. Even if they're more conventional than a lot of her own material, they are still brilliant and have classic Ringo subtleties.