I thought I was the only Ringo fan! Newbie questions too...

[Osiris12345]

Maou could probably go into a lot more detail than me about Ukigumo's problems but the main ones people have is that he doesn't seem to display the versatility that Hirama did, his guitar tone, and the fact that his playing style almost single-handedly altered the sound of Tokyo Jihen. That's really just barely touching the points though.

I personally don't hate Ukigumo's playing but I can understand why some here detest it. It's pretty different and doesn't exactly lend itself well to high energy performances like Hirama's did. Most won't dispute Ukigumo's technical ability but it's his lack of stage presence and energy that puts most people off. Is he hated on a tad too much? Yeah, I think so. But do the people who dislike him have valid points? Yeah, I think so too.

As for the Shuraba question, most people like the single version better because that solo is acoustic and that seems to be where Uki excels the most. It's a tone thing. And I think you're confusing Izawa's keys for another guitar solo because the second part of it is him soloing, not Uki.

[Beltshumeltz]

Can someone point me a song from Educaton/Adult/Variety that showcases Ukigumo and another that showcases Hiarama? Is Hirama the guy wearing the funny top hat and suit in some concerts?

[justriiingo]

Hirama showcase = Electric Mole... Tsumi to Batsu? And maybe Stem.

Ukigumo showcase = Toumei Ningen (adult version)

[ShadyNook]

Originally Posted by Osiris12345

As for the Shuraba question, most people like the single version better because that solo is acoustic and that seems to be where Uki excels the most. It's a tone thing. And I think you're confusing Izawa's keys for another guitar solo because the second part of it is him soloing, not Uki.

its definitely a tone thing. He needs to turn the Gain knob up to add some sizzle to the sickly single coil sound or ditch his signature little Vox Telephantom.

when he plays the solo on classical acoustic its so sweet! Ukigumbo tends to use too many 1/8th notes like a shred guitarist to a fault.

Hirama held notes on solos longer so they had more weight. maybe he couldnt play fast, but nobody seems to mind.

about Variety
I believe that Variety would have still seen as subpar TJ album to some fans regardless of the band lineup. If Variety in some alternate universe were all Hirama+HZM songs or all Hirama+Izawa songs, it wouldnt matter. It was the absence of Ringo songs that caused disappointment.

[Osiris12345]

Originally Posted by Beltshumeltz

Can someone point me a song from Educaton/Adult/Variety that showcases Ukigumo and another that showcases Hiarama? Is Hirama the guy wearing the funny top hat and suit in some concerts?

Hirama = Himitsu from Dynamite Out, Mayonaka wa Junketsu from Electric Mole, Omatsuri Sawagi (album and DO versions)
Ukigumo = Tegami from Adult, Rakujitsu from Just Can't Help It, Killer Tune from Variety

You can YouTube all of those if you want to. And yeah, Hirama's the guy in the green suit and the funny top hat. That was the Dynamite Out concert.

[Scribble R]

Originally Posted by ShadyNook

about Variety
I believe that Variety would have still seen as subpar TJ album to some fans regardless of the band lineup. If Variety in some alternate universe were all Hirama+HZM songs or all Hirama+Izawa songs, it wouldnt matter. It was the absence of Ringo songs that caused disappointment.

Yeah. But Hirama and HZM could at least have Dynamite OUTED their version of VARIETY.

I agree with, I think it was Bebio, that Variety sounded more intricate in Spa and Treatment -- unfortunately, that couldn't save the bad songwriting...in most of the songs.

Izawa and Uki annoy me, because I blame them for taking away the mindblow that was Shiina Ringo (Heck, even if her product was Sanmon Gossip level for a while, I wouldn't mind). Then again, A. Adult was ultimately disappointing, and B. I think Ukigumo DOES have a bit of talent, and when his stuff works, it works.

I don't even know what they were thinking with Variety, which is why I'm actually looking forward to TJ album 4. I want to see what Uki and Izawa do when they reach their fullest potential, and it would help if Shiina accompanied them with the songwriting.

And this will probably sound silly to some people, but I think Ukigumo and Izawa could achieve an Electric Mole and Dynamite Out concert, BUT it would happen by luck/chance. Some of DVL and Spa and Treatment and for some people, Rakujitsu JCHI proves that.

But it would definitely be a LUCK thing.

[justriiingo]

Originally Posted by Scribble R

I want to see what Uki and Izawa do when they reach their fullest potential, and it would help if Shiina accompanied them with the songwriting.

Potential? Potential? Dude haven't you heard adult? That's basically their fullest potential already; there's no more room for them to expand their music anymore w/o undergoing brain surgery or kidnapping better songwriters to ghost songs for them. I know you're still optimistic and I have no right to take that from you, but the sooner you realise that they suck and there's no way out, the less painful it is when it finally hits you one day that they're done. Take it from the person who's been through like what, 4 shitty albums. I know that it feels like to have the best thing in the world drained away from me.

[Scribble R]

As far as TJ are concerned -- wait, justriingo, how do you know that Adult is their fullest potential, considering Ukigumo and Izawa didn't even write most of that album, and it's arguably Shiina's weakest songwriting? The reason I say that Phase 2 have potential is because they have proved, even in the Variety era, that they're not totally useless. Ukigumo has also been responsible for some of Shiina's best work, all connected to SR's greatest album.

If you're not into the Tokyo Jihen projects, that's fine. I think it's just a bit ridiculous that some people here (Not saying that I haven't been guilty of it in the past) make all encompassing, ALL OR NOTHING statements like the music sucks now, supported by pretentious, pseudo-snobbish praise of 'superior' artists who are completely different from SR/TJ.

I like to joke about Variety, and I AM a bit disappointed that things aren't different, but I can simultaneously be that AND look forward to future SR/TJ projects. And who knows, if Ukigumo and Izawa aren't purposely piggybacking Shiina for fame, Phase 3 of Tokyo Jihen could happen.

The one thing I'll agree with you regarding the limited potential of Tokyo Jihen is that it will be harder to expand their 'sound' because of Ukigumo's playing style. But maybe you're being a bit close-minded, since we've had only TWO Ukigumo/Izawa albums, one of which really isn't that bad? ('Greater' artists than SR have had worse albums)

Maybe Ukigumo has been training himself to become Hirama for the next album (Now that's optimism)

[Beltshumeltz]

I'm always surprised when I hear people complain about most of the Tokyo Jihen stuff because any given studio album has always grown on me until I loved it so far. I adore Variety, Adult, Education, Sanmon Gossip, KZK, Shouso Strip, ZecchoZhu and Muzai Moratorium. No exception! They all just really grew on me and I love that they are all very different. I even grew to love the cheesy aspects of Adult and Variety (ie. that weird guitar, the males singing in weird voices)

[so_cold]

Looong post coming, but long-term fans would have made ones like this, so it's my turn.

Welcome, Beltshuumeltz, by the way! Hirama's the guy with the long glossy hair. I mistakenly thought Ukigumo looked like Kameda's picture when I joined, I thought: shame he's getting hate, he looks a nice guy (if a bit older)! I'm happy for you that TJ hasn't been a bumpy ride.

... But anyway my only hope for TJ Album 4 is that there are no songs that actively make me want to forget their musical memory. Several Variety era songs are like that, and it is not a good sign. Life's too short to see if lives improve them when other music doesn't suck. How can anyone listen to the demos, hear how talented SR was with every song, many of which never made the studio, and then listen to Variety?

Having met all three TJ albums in 2009: I was initially confused by Kyoiku/DO worship on here because I found songs like Gunjou Biyori alienating. In retrospect I can see the solo era all the instruments were carefully mixed, SS had some electronica mixed in, whereas the Kyoiku era has a very forceful up-and-down dynamic which took some getting used to and even SR had a bad song in Bokoku Jochou (but Jusui Negai, Sounan etc = great!). It took watching EM afterwards for me to love that line-up (sorry) but then I really did. Unfashionably amongst the dominant voices on EMF, I really love some of Adult and JCHI: the way Hata's drums and Izawa's piano are produced are just delicious, and SR came up with some heartrending tunes again. @Scribble: Himitsu, Shuraba, Tasogare Naki and Keshou Naoshi are a long way from being weak melodies, I'm not sure if you meant any of those! Toumei Ningen (any version) is made of skip though.

But for me to be a fan of TJ now: yeah Uki would have to change his guitar model, it does sound plucky and old-fashioned. An external producer would have to come in and replace the oddly dry wurlys (Variety song I've forgotten) and horrible organs (Blackout). Most here are rock/guitar fans and notice the guitars, I'm electronica/jazz/soul mainly and notice the keys. Phase 2's sound has gone downwards from the best aspects of the Adult era, IMO: Himitsu and Get It Up For Love, for rock JCHI C'mon Let's Go (then they're a normal, modern-sounding rock band and it's refreshing - different guitar models?) If they wanted to do loungey jazzy sounds or disco again with a different spin there are Japanese producers who are excellent at that, but I can't see them being brought in, and Variety is (J-)pop, basically, not jazz or rock. I only want one song with a kooky arrangement like Tokai no Manaa.

They'd need to wait until SR has written 11 good songs. My skip button finger is worn out. If Kameda has to write a song, Shiina should tweak his melody and his chords. If Uki has to write a song he should stick to his listenable RnB-ish style and not actually attempt rock, because BB Queen II is too awful to contemplate. If Izawa has to write a song, he should keep it to himself.

But that's too many if's.

Rakujitsu is more a pure composition than a band song. Any cover of it will have the uplifting "Rakujitsu effect", and the best performance features Shiina accompanying herself on guitar for the most part.

I'm just happy to have gone through this in a short space of time and maybe I will never know the same passion as justriiingo. But sometimes I think there should be a primer for new solo SR fans discovering TJ to save us potential hurt and disappointment, it's not at all obvious why Sounan and Ramp are products of the same band. First-period solo SR is nearly all wonderful, so I'm at peace there. I vented about how SG is several steps down from that (but still good), so I've got that out of my system. SR in 2009 has a habit of going all showtune-y, that's just her tastes and not mine. In any case I'm expecting a bit of a wait for any good new material or another solo album to come out.

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