Is Shiina Ringo a gay icon??

[kuro_neko]

Originally Posted by ShinjiPG

The japanese gay community is in its early steps, yet it's probably the country with the most amount of yaoi/bara mangakas and yaoi/bara fans. And the yaoi community is basically just women, so one would think that they were totally tolerant. 2D is ok, but 3D is too much, right?
Not to mention male homosexuality has been a part of the country's history, or so make it seem some movies I've seen. One movie from the 60s in particular, Bara no Souretsu, depicted the lives of "gay boy" a term they use to refer to drag queens which were starting to consistently make part of the red light districts. Apparently it was just another foreign phenomenon that they adopted or something, but it doesn't sound that surprising considering the tradition of kabuki theatre. The film also shows some testimonials from true gay men, aka men that like other men but don't dress as women. One would think that 40 years were enough for major evolutions in that community.

no, that is just it, as far as the Japanese see it, male homosexuality has NEVER been a part of the country's history. it doesn't matter of samurai took boy "apprentices" until a certain age, or what happens in college dorm hazing rituals, or when salary men become drunk. at the end it is all just fun and games and doesn't mean anything. that is why even the gay community, as seen in such pocket communities like nichome, is even limiting and immature as seen by an outsider who comes from a country where homosexuality is increasingly in the open. you are so right when you talk about homosexuality and the term "gay" as just another western phenomenon that was adapted in Japan. it is really with the younger generation, I'd say 30 and under, who are truly beginning to live a gay lifestyle and not just enjoy the physical company of men.

but even so, nichome and japanese gay community is rife with stereotypes. for starts, razor ramon (known as hard gay to most people) was a passing fad, you rarely hear or see of him anymore. even so, it was a huge stereotype that largely offended most of my gay japanese friends. they didn't find him funny in the least. these supposed "communities" are more or less groupings of private bars, bathhouses, and clubs, and the activity is pretty much strictly limited to nights and weekends.

being of unusual character, I figured finding a gay subculture would be the easiest way to access a japanese subculture directly. boy was I wrong. for starters, I don't fit the stereotype of what a gay should look like or act like. I don't wear Abercrombie, I don't listen to pop music, I don't have short hair, I don't go to the gym, and I don't say things like "fabulous!!!!" sure, all of these things are gross stereotypes, but that is just it, in japan it was doing these things that identified you as gay to other people and made you welcome to the community. because of that, I found more friends from standing in line at YUKI and Amano Tsukiko concerts and at art galleries and kabuki-cho street corners than in gay clubs. and more often than not, with my straight japanese guy friends, if I liked them enough and if I was curious and we were drunk enough, anything could happen. japanese guys get drunk and the craziest stuff happens.

anyways, I don't know how much light I'm illuminating on what you are asking, but I suppose my point is that gay culture in japan is really just coming into its own, despite a homosexual prescence for quite some time in one way or another. men have been touching each other on train's and in public bathrooms for decades (anyone read Mishima?) but that doesn't really denote anyone gay, just horny.

[ShinjiPG]

Originally Posted by kuro_neko

it is really with the younger generation, I'd say 30 and under, who are truly beginning to live a gay lifestyle and not just enjoy the physical company of men.

You make a good point here and that's mainly the difference. Men can be with other men at night, but during the day they are as straight as one can be. If all of them felt confortable about coming out, there would probably be a gay community as big as in the states. But that's what bothers me, I don't understand why tolerance hasn't grown in Japan. Tolerance enough for at least a considerable community in the big cities.
Well, it's not like my country is that tolerant, but Japan is supposed to be one of the most "evolved" countries of the world, so... Anyway, it's their problem =P

[isxahopas]

Thank you kuro_neko and ShinjiPG for that (really insightful!) information.

True or False: Perhaps one of the most telling methods of understanding Japanese culture as a whole is first to understand it's history with and current relationship with homosexuality?

[a_grumble_cake]

Originally Posted by natsume

Lots of design students at my school. Anna Tsuchiya is very popular. I am not so sure about others, lots of people I have never heard of, visual artists, film makers, photographers, actresses, actors, etc. I don't know why they are into what they are, most of the time. Some of them are really into Western music, but I don't think they are looking so much for icons there as for foreignness. They might be into some cool shit, but they also turn right around and bum me out by also being hugely into bands like EXILE. They get excited when I tell them that I am a Ringo fan, but when I tell them I also like UA, that is like telling them I like their mom's music. They know who she is, but they are not impressed.

cool. thanks!
I get the western music/foreignness thing. I think many western teens get into Japanese pop culture for the same reasons.

I'm sad to hear abercrombie made its way to Japan

[TeslaGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan
http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue3/mclelland2.html
http://www.japan-guide.com/forum/que...ay.html?0+4442
http://www.geocities.com/bjcjapan/roots.html
http://www.japanvisitor.com/index.ph...ay-japan-index
http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com...sexuality.html
http://www.experiencefestival.com/ho...ality_in_japan
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0081223i1.html
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/04/09/093446.php
http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/japan.html

[ShinjiPG]

Thank you for your kind words Tesla!

[kuro_neko]

thanks for the links tesla, but I have to say I disagree with some of what is being written. Having sat at home and watched famous performers dressed as women, who were actually men, no one in my host family brought up the word "gay" or "queer" the problem with explaining japanese history and culture to a foreigner is you have to add in foreign concepts and terms to make the explaination clear, and words like "gay" and "queer" and everything that goes with them are part of that.

needless to say the mayor of Tokyo hates two things at the moment: blacks, and gays. he thinks if he can kick all the blacks out of roppongi there will be no drugs and crime and if he can clean up nichome the way he did kabuki-cho, everything will be solved. so as a result, you have policemen patroling nichome and searching bags when people come out of clubs, but not actively searching for such notorious villians as the man who murdered a young british woman over two years ago and is still on the run. japanese police are a huge joke. the mayor also has it in mind that if tears down public restrooms in hibiya and other locales gays will stop cruising and having sex in public. yeah, right, like that is going to happen.

[Lustau]

I am certainly not qualified to speak on homosexuality within Japanese culture (or even homosexuality generally), but the question for this forum strikes me as interesting.

I would think Ringo has potential as a gay icon because of her interest in blurring gender norms. I've always enjoyed how she seems to emulate male and female styles of singing within the same song, and how in her early career she seemed to enjoy rebelling against the expectations for a female pop star. Her constant wanderings from one genre to the next also show a dissatisfaction with convention. So although she doesn't (as far as I am aware) explicitly address themes of homosexuality in her work, it would be reasonable for a community that feels constrained by conventional gender relations to find her freedom from conventions of gender, genre, or industry norms inspiring.

[frecklegirl]

Originally Posted by ShinjiPG

As noted by Orenji, the "Ariamaru Tomi" cover photo looks very androgynous

Really? What about that obvious boob cleavage? When I look at that cover I think "Damn, that is Ringo's sexiest single cover to date." Especially when I look at them all lined up.

[JimmyKoria]

Originally Posted by frecklegirl

Really? What about that obvious boob cleavage? When I look at that cover I think "Damn, that is Ringo's sexiest single cover to date." Especially when I look at them all lined up.

If anything I'd think that too.

Does anyone find that necklace to be an odd variant of clear? I hope I'm refereeing to the right photo because it does kind of remind of an English slang word :x