[SR] 2000.01.26 - Tsumi to Batsu (CD) [Single]

[kuro_neko]

no, I like variety (...errr....I don't mean the album...). the exact things that I liked in Ringo when I first heard her music are different from what I now. it appealed to the angsty youth in me at the time. I'm older now and I can enjoy different qualities of music. by your example the most famous pieces of music in the world should all be dramatic, but when I think of the greats there is a variety. and i'm talking about classical here. I don't want to start up a new album and have every song be in your face look at me I'm so misunderstood wah wah wah. it gets old after a few songs.

[Scribble R]

Originally Posted by kuro_neko

no, I like variety (...errr....I don't mean the album...). the exact things that I liked in Ringo when I first heard her music are different from what I now. it appealed to the angsty youth in me at the time. I'm older now and I can enjoy different qualities of music. by your example the most famous pieces of music in the world should all be dramatic, but when I think of the greats there is a variety. and i'm talking about classical here. I don't want to start up a new album and have every song be in your face look at me I'm so misunderstood wah wah wah. it gets old after a few songs.

Interesting. Shiina Ringo's old music didn't appeal to the angsty youth in me at all. It made me go YEH BOI! Or act like one of those Beatles fangirls in the 60s.

Also, people here were really pleased with Bonsai Hada, and although it's a decent song, it felt like such a 'by-numbers', 'classic' Shiina song. So did Ariamaru Tomi (And even she said that she wrote it for teens) And people here seemed to lap it up! Which is why some of the disillusioned fans here are kind of silly, because I have no doubt that if Shiina wanted to, she could make an album full of Ariamaru Tomis, Superficial Gossips, Bonsai Hadas, Hatsukoi Shoujo and Tamatebakos, dark/depressing/angry music, and everyone would start gushing about how 'she's back.' Some other artists seem more impressive because they have one thing that they're really good at, and do that for their entire career.

If she did that more, she'd become a caricature of herself, and that would be even WORSE than what she's doing now. We'd get Faux-Angry Shiina, even worse than Nu-Happy Shiina. Some people here would be happy with Caricature, Faux-Angry Shiina. Jazz/Nu-Shiina stuff aside, she's actually trying new stuff. Experimenting. Collaborating with different artists. Not of all it hits the mark, but I believe that this will enhance her songwriting in the long term.

And I seriously think that it's silly to think in black-and-white. Unless you suffer from a serious mental illness, or the really serious stages of chronic depression, you're hardly sad all the time. Moods can change just like that. If ended up beating her son out of anger after he gave her backchat in front of the cashier at Lawsons, this could easily prompt her to write a 'sad song.'

If Bonsai Hada was genuinely caused by sadness, she could have written it after looking at an old picture of Hirama and her at the seaside. On the other hand, she could have written Iroikazata just after having hot passionate sex with Mummy D. And then there's the songs she just writes for the hell of it, like that second SoilnPimp song which she wrote just to see if she could capture their sound.

Whatever she does, and as long as she keeps 'experimenting' and making music, her catalogue by the time she's dead will be more impressive than if she wrote Kyouiku 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13. Kind of like how The Rolling Stones genre-hopped and failed quite a few times, but are ultimately seen as legends. She's done a lot commercially in 10 years.

Was Shiina even unhappy during Dynamite Out?

[kuro_neko]

but thats the thing, Ariamaru Tomi and Bonsai Hada aren't even sad songs. you can think one thing while listening to them without paying attention to lyrics, and then read the lyrics and suddenly see something entirely different. Ariamaru Tomi, to me, is a song about finding the beauty in every day people, places, and things. like just going for a walk down the street and enjoying the birdsong and forest (at least where I live). Bonsai Hada, to me, isn't a song about being sad, but a song about your center, your physicality, being in your own skin. its a kind of thoughtful consideration of a soul and mind contained within a specific body and raised in a certain culture and time.

this is where people will give me a beating, but one thing I've noticed about these forums is that the people who seem to thoroughly enjoy the different aspects of ringo throughout her career tend to acknowledge and place more emphasis on lyrics, and as a result within that we tend to have a higher proportion of Japanese-speakers in that group than the other. you can listen to a song and take so much away from it, but it is going to be entirely up to interpretation. when you subject the artist's interpretation on top of that (by their intended lyrics), it becomes a different thing entirely.

so you can listen to bonsai hada and hear a sad song. or you can hear the words and read into the message and feel something entirely different.

that is why I get annoyed when people on these forums get to upset when members like "bad" music. what does that mean? its like arguing over an unfinished painting that hasn't even been unveiled to the public yet, entirely open to speculation and interpretation.

[Scribble R]

I sorta used the wrong word. I didn't mean sad, per se, but emotional or sentimental. Ariamaru Tomi and Bonsai Hada, lyrics aside, sound pretty emotional.

About the lyrics thing -- there's a few people here that think lyrics are useless. I really disagree. Sure, as a Ringo fan, I've managed to do without it. But if I knew Japanese, I think her music would be enhanced. It just goes to show how subject

It's like The Beatles's Eleanor Rigby. If the lyrics had not been this:

Eleanor Rigby picks up the rice in the church where a wedding has been
Lives in a dream
Waits at the window, wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door
Who is it for?

And had been this:

Eleanor Rigby, is the most beautiful girl I had ever seen
She's like a queen
Waits in the lounge, wearing the dress that she keeps in the dresser

The song would be much less memorable. People argue that your own interpretation of the music is more important, but 'your interpretation' might not be as strong as the artist's.

And in SR's case -- Songs like Yattsuke Shigoto in which the sound of the lyrics, as well as the meaning, convey how bored she is. Or like in Tsukigime-Hime, when she sings "Stop that clapping!" at the clapping bit. Or in Mittei Monagatari, the sassiness of the lyrics enhances the sassiness of the song. Just like how you can be affected if someone says something to you in RL, a musician can do the same.

Originally Posted by kuro_neko

that is why I get annoyed when people on these forums get to upset when members like "bad" music. what does that mean? its like arguing over an unfinished painting that hasn't even been unveiled to the public yet, entirely open to speculation and interpretation.

The whole issue of good vs bad music interests me. My opinion is that 'music taste' is subjective and most music snobs strike me as obnoxious and pretentious. However, I don't think the issue is clear cut, so I'm genuinely interested on hearing the other side of the argument, beyond 'Good music is intricate and complex!' Like, you could look at Crime and Punishment (Zing #2) and say that it's infinitely superior to say, Twilight. So I wonder how that applies to music.

[Tokyo Jihad]

Originally Posted by kuro_neko

I don't want to start up a new album and have every song be in your face look at me I'm so misunderstood wah wah wah. it gets old after a few songs.

Is that at all what I fucking said? You want every song to be about being a bitch, I know, I get it.

[kuro_neko]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Jihad

Is that at all what I fucking said? You want every song to be about being a bitch, I know, I get it.

no, I don't. I clearly just stated and made a case for *the opposite* as in the discussion with scribble. I'm not even directly commenting about what you said here, I'm talking about my preference and the whole argument about how musicians write better music when they are sad or dramatic. case in point, I don't think so.

[Maou]

How do people always spin a subject like this into SR making repeat albums? Fuck, even if it's true that artists write their best work when sad/miserable/whatev, that doesn't limit the kinds of music they make or the subjects of the songs.

[Ringo~Bingo]

Hey Glath can you let me know if these are genuine first press singles! If I have bought more samples I'm gonna jump out the window

[Glathannus]

I have a sample copy of Gips somewhere, and the obi is marked underneath the shrinkwrap - in a way that your CDs aren't. Those are legit first-press copies.

[Ringo~Bingo]

That's good to know! I thought I just poured 2200 Yen down the drain on more rubbish