Created an account just to say this:

[Maou]

Originally Posted by Glathannus

As if whenever a new member actually has their own opinion, there's bullies uttering amongst themselves "Oh, look! It's someone who's not wearing our gang colors...".

[Carlx]

^ They are cleary snapping their fingers. Makes no sense at all.

[The Most Curious Thing]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Jihad

@ TurtleFu's thoughts on SS: I think SS really suffers when you hear KZK first. Otherwise it just sounds like "half way between MM and KZK," which it literally is. But really what gets lost is the jump from MM. You miss Shiina growing as an artist, handling her medium. Of course with KZK already in your mind, you've already heard further artistry and mastery so SS sounds just like another conventional album with some noises. It's so much more.

Well having listened to MM now (and having listened to her first three albums in reverse order), I'm trying to frame it this way in retrospect...and yeah, I agree. It's uncanny how SS falls exactly halfway between MM and KSK stylistically.

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

MM is young Shiina. That's the best way to describe it. She really doesn't know how to use her voice yet and her songwriting is really bad in some songs. Shiina is who she is today in part due to the guidance she got from her producers, and MM shows that.

As inflammatory as this is (and now non-existant -- sorry to quote an edit-out ) I agree with the first part. Throughout MM, her upper register is weak (as in the ending of Sid to Hakuchuumu) and she doesn't have her characteristically nasal voice. But I certainly disagree with the second part. Her songwriting seems less "labored" when compared to the painstaking arrangements of KSK -- not to say that "labored" is a good or bad thing. It's just different. Of course, I still love KSK more than almost anything in the world

Anyway, thank you all for your recommendations and comments. I kind of wish I could reset my mind in a year or so and listen to these all for the first time again...there are not many albums like that.

[Maou]

Originally Posted by The Most Curious Thing

But I certainly disagree with the second part. Her songwriting seems less "labored" when compared to the painstaking arrangements of KSK -- not to say that "labored" is a good or bad thing. It's just different.

Now, now. Things you like are "good songwriting" while things you don't like are "bad songwriting" to some of the members here. It's perfectly acceptable to think Kokode is "bad songwriting" because it's a prototypical mainstream pop-rock song while Phase 2 albums are "good songwriting" because they're also mainstream pop-rock songs. No details as to why either.

KSK is the weakest of the albums because it's the least "genuine" of her original albums. It feels cold, distant and detached and gets more praise than the other albums just because of the arrangements. Her songwriting didn't improve. It's the same as always, but with more complex arrangements.

[Tokyo Jihad]

Are we entering the age of KZK-backlash??

[Maou]

I've made it clear in the past that KSK is my least favorite of the original 3, but it's still great. I wouldn't really call it a backlash from the people who find it to be highly overrated. Instead, it's just a reiteration of the general consensus of the album after it's initial release. It was not the beloved album it is today when it was first released.

EM > KSK

MM > SS = Watashi to Houden > KSK

[TurtleFu]

As for Kokode, that comment that was clearly directed at me (Good job being passive-aggressive!); MM was based on "hook songs" (songs driven by the chorus, to make them catchy). Koko de Kiss shite is a fantastic example, because its structure is literally:
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Chorus
Chorus
Chorus

Her later songs (and best ones) have more unusual structures, or minimize the chorus. Like Tsumi to Batsu, or Poltergeist, or Souretsu. Even TJ songs, while still in the pop-rock mold, are not "hook songs".


Most of the songs are not only experimental in their arrangement, but also in the structure of the song and the melodies. Even when you listen to re-arranged versions of these songs its still obvious.

And, even so, minimizing the arrangements makes no sense. If "Hyperballad" was made with a standard pop-rock band arrangement, it wouldn't be the same.

Also, "general consensus" of an album can suck it. KZK is an album that the mainstream (which Shiina was, and still is, FIRMLY in) could not even appreciate.

[Maou]

^ Kokode does not start with a chorus section. Did you really just say the "I'll never be able to give up on you" line is an opening chorus? Regardless, that is an oversimplified view of the songs that doesn't take bridges, solos, and variations into consideration. It also ignores the simple song structures of songs like Meisai, Ishiki, and Doppelganger among other songs in order to make a somewhat false point. Even your example of Poltergeist has a simple structure of:

Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Chorus

Yes, the lyrics are different in each of the chorus sections, but the melody is the same and the chorus ("hook") drives the majority of the song. It's been the same on all of her albums. Granted there may be more exceptions on a particular album, but they've all had exceptions. Byoushou Public is the same way, but gets completely overlooked. Kabukichou no Joou, Memai, or Tadashii Machi anybody? If Poltergeist isn't chorus driven, these songs aren't either.

Also, unless kuro neko was passing around false information unknowingly, Souretsu was originally meant to be the closing track of MM. I don't remember why she decided against it.

The Kokode comment was inspired by you, but not necessarily directed at you. I don't even like Kokode. I could have substituted any other MM/SS song and made the same comment. You are not the first person to ever make that comment and you won't be the last. It's similar to the comments made towards Gibs by varying members whose names I don't remember. If it was unfair to you, then I'm sorry, but it did need to be addressed anyway.

[gekokujyo]

If you're looking for something representative of her current musical style, SPORTS is a pretty solid album. Don't let those nostalgic purists tell you otherwise.

[W3iHong]

I didn't mean to offend Maou or the members in this community. I just don't like it when people tries to strongly push his ideas into another.

Sorry if I have offended anyone. Sorry to Maou...

Btw... Most of the time I do not understand what you all are talking about when you talk about song compositions and the works. I have no background in music theory. I have only started playing the violin for 3 years now. I loved music since I was young but did not get the chance to do any music.

So... most of the time, I listen to my instincts about the songs or not when what is it telling me. It is my true feelings towards the songs. Maybe sometimes my opinions are amateurish and childish.

All albums have their good points.

HF for smooth music except for yokushitsu.
Solo works for rebel Ringo.
TJ for relax mode a.k.a. Ringo-just-want-what-Ringo-like music.