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Old 2009.12.17, 12:54 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mizer_unmei View Post
You've got her too far up on a pedestal. Whatever she does or whatever she did, she's still a pop artist. Sure she can use all sorts of outer influences, but the simple Kayokyoku/Blankey Jet City/90s R&B influence is always there. There's a reason why she's not mainly working with full orchestras and sticking to the guitar/bass/drum/keyboard combo that's been all the rave for the past 60 years -- because she's making pop music. The songs are short and the hook is essential. This can be said with anything from KZK to Variety.

And you just seem haughty looking down on pop like you seem to be. If that's your view on music, of course you'll be extra disappointed when she puts out something that doesn't meet your standards of innovation or whatnot.
So essentially what you're saying is that, SR is a pop artist, she is entitled to make unchallenging music. I'm not sure if MM, SS and KZK told the same story. Especially not KZK. I did not set any standards for SR, SR herself did. I'm just... reminding the fans not to settle for anything less.
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Old 2009.12.17, 02:58 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by justriiingo View Post
So essentially what you're saying is that, SR is a pop artist, she is entitled to make unchallenging music. I'm not sure if MM, SS and KZK told the same story. Especially not KZK. I did not set any standards for SR, SR herself did. I'm just... reminding the fans not to settle for anything less.
That's the thing, KZK seems to be a once in a lifetime thing. She was in a distinct state of mind that I doubt she will replicate. (or, since she formed TJ right after it, I even doubt that it's something she wants to replicate) Even she said she let her ego go crazy with that one. Now that she's in a band there will be outside input there.

She doesn't have an obligation to make what you call "challenging music." She makes what she wants to make, and if that means something not as complex as your standards you have either have to learn to enjoy the new stuff as it is or come to terms with the fact that that people actually change and that you won't be satisfied with her new stuff. Simple music is actually something that's fantastic in it's own right. Motown, The Peanuts, The Smiths, Chiyo Okumura, Early Madonna, Early Beatles... they're all lacking the complexity you seem to require from Ringo, but that doesn't mean it's bad music in the least.

And personally I don't see how anything TJ put out is really any different in complexity from MM or SS. Himitsu or Kingyo no Hako are on the same level for me as Keikoku or whatnot.
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Old 2009.12.17, 04:26 PM   #63
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It seems as though you two (mizer_unmei and justriiingo) are having term discrepancy. While I don't think Wikipedia's distinction of the two is entirely accurate (they practically make all "'pop' music" out to be bubblegum), it's definitely suitable for the scope of this conversation... I still prefer to call all popular music "pop" though, because it almost ALWAYS follows traditional song structures and very rarely addresses subjects outside of human relationships or popular ideologies. Even most "rock" music now is simply pop music with the tempo and distortion turned up (which isn't necessarily bad!).

Originally Posted by Glathannus View Post
"Sports" will be put on this earth to give the haters a newfound respect for Variety.
"Well at least it's not Sports!".
While I'm not necessarily a "hater", I'm not a huge fan of Variety... or Ukigumo for that matter. I'm really optimistic about this album, though. I seriously think Sports will be on par with Adult (my favorite TJ album, as far as composition is concerned)... maybe even better.
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Old 2009.12.17, 04:36 PM   #64
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i recently went on a shiina ringo/early jihen binge and the new stuff really doesn't compare at all. i was able to enjoy variety and the new single because i hadn't listened to the old work in such a long time, but it really is almost heartless to some extent. while i really enjoy the latest single, i've been bothered to think that this is the best they can do, though i agree with maou that i think it's better than most of variety. but jr makes a good point that i guess explains it for me: it really is that middleground compromising that is holding them back. i don't doubt that shiina ringo can still write songs, but you can never, ever do anything great when you're trying to please everyone. it's like john lennon said, the beatles were the biggest bastards around and that's why they were the best. and apparently ringo was quite the bitch before, she dominated the band and that's why they were awesome (i even remember a translation of an interview where even saito neko said she was getting on him, i think during the making of HF).

i'm attracted, fascinated by greatness, and i seriously thought that's what everything from ADULT and back that Ringo had done was just that. while it's true, they still pwn most everybody out there, i'm a little bothered by thinking of the fall from grace and in the fashion that it's come, with this settling. i do think what the new single shows is pretty exciting and creative, but i guess at the heart, the songs just aren't the same, so any embelleshing can't save them.
question: who wrote these two songs? i think from an interview neko translated, it said ringo wrote the single as a sort of warmup? but what about the b-side?

after writing that, i'm thinking that really, it's the songwriting that is down the hill, and i excused her from variety because she had nothing to do with it, but SG wasn't so stunning either. i wonder if it's as shady nook said, that her success has gotten to her. maybe she just hasn't had any problems that have given her enough to burn into a song. she seems happy and i guess that's her problem. as an artist, that is.

so i guess their arrangements can stay awesome and that's what draws me, because they can come up with that no matter what, but for the heart, the song, just ringo writing it on piano or guitar, she needs some pain. makes sense how KZK came after a divorce* and pregnancy.

*i'm not sure if the divorce came before, during, or after the pregnancy

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Old 2009.12.17, 07:36 PM   #65
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I think to expect another KZK is unfair but what I do expect is music thats made with artistic intent and a high degree of honesty. If the record label and the artists wellbeing require it to sell than its fine if they advertise it through the roof, but it better still be impressive once your take away the gloss and gimmicks of themes, music videos, ads and magazine hype. This is part of the reason why I don't take much interest in the DVDs....one for EVERY TOUR seems absurd and like milking to me.
In retrospect, I can say that Heisei was still an artistic attempt. I didn't love it because it was so familiar and I was still expecting another KZK but it was still art.

I'm not so sure the same can be said for SG. Most of the artistic intent on the album seems to be due to the collaborators (Soil, Coba, even smacky D or whatever his name is and his weak version of art). It seemed like Ringo just wanted to get a comeback over with and releive the pressure of being 'that old ringo' again and wanted to get rid of the "what if"s.

From what the other members of jihen are saying at this point. I'm not dreading the new album. Their minds seem to be in the music.

But I honestly am not into the constantly changing style thing. I appreciate a vairety of style but she's sped through so many styles that she can afford to slow down for a bit. I just want something that comes from the heart. If shes feeling Jazz now, good do more jazz. It's better than trying something new just to try something new.
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Old 2009.12.17, 09:36 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by mizer_unmei View Post
She didn't start making music because of the money. Why would she change now now?
Originally Posted by mizer_unmei View Post
She makes what she wants to make, and if that means something not as complex as your standards you have either have to learn to enjoy the new stuff as it is or come to terms with the fact that that people actually change and that you won't be satisfied with her new stuff.
Hi mizer, there is a loophole in your argument. So did she change or did she not?
I don't deny that simple music can be good, but SR is not good at making simple music. That's just not how her brain works. She loves palindromes, is obsessed with symmetry, and goes to great lengths to write her lyrics in obscure kanji, writes syncopated rhythms for Hata all the time... she's is not the type who goes for simple.


Originally Posted by lazer85 View Post
I just want something that comes from the heart.
I want that too. Call me delusional or whatever, but I would like to believe that I know SR's music well-enough to know when she is writing from her heart and when she is not. (If you go through all the demos you could probably hear this quite well.) I haven't heard this "from the heart" thing for a long long time... The last one was probably Hatsukoi Shoujou from HF.
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Old 2009.12.17, 09:58 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by justriiingo View Post
Hi mizer, there is a loophole in your argument. So did she change or did she not?
OMGoodness. That's on 2 completely different points. You were ranting about why she is still making music, because she doesn't need the money. She wouldn't change her view ON THE MONEY.

And oh wow, in that same post I also said:

Originally Posted by mizer_unmei View Post
I mean I was around for KZK. I started listening to her right before that and got into her though her first 2 albums. MM is my absolute favorite album from her, but that doesn't stop me from liking Variety or SG. She's an artist and naturally grows and changes her style. You can't expect her to stay the same 20 year old that put out those first few albums.
JR's comment questioning Ringo's reason to make music is incomprehensible to me. She didn't start making music because of the money. Why would she change now now? Even though she's not making music to your liking doesn't mean it's without merits. It's still quality music that's different and better than a lot of what's out there.
And you have your opinion on whether or not Ringo makes "good" simple music, but that's your own opinion. Stop acting like your so called standards for music are top of the line and stop acting like you're looking down upon us people who actually enjoy the new work. Like, you do here:

Originally Posted by justriiingo View Post
Wow.
So you guys are happy comparing her to run-of-the-mill pop artists. This is very sad. If you set your standards so low, of course whatever she puts out is going to be well, comparatively miles ahead.
And here:
Originally Posted by justriiingo View Post
See, their middleground "just enough" approach is already manifesting itself among the fans. Well good for them, it's an economically sustainable revenue model.
And here:
Originally Posted by justriiingo View Post
I'm just... reminding the fans not to settle for anything less.
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Old 2009.12.17, 10:29 PM   #68
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lazer, i agree, i want her to be writing from the heart, too, but i don't think that happened too much in SG. Bonsai hada is the only song that really stands out to me in that sense, it seems really inspired. while i like some of the other songs, they seem to be made just for the fun of making a song, which there is no problem with that, but they feel almost like knock-offs to me (albeit, pretty good ones to just knock off =P). the opening track is pretty good but it seems more like something she just wanted to try her hand at rather than something that was completely inspired by a strong emotion. Shun is the other stand-out track for me, but i don't know if i'd say it's a great song. I love the karisome otome but that was already released, and the maru sadistic rearrange is interesting, but it's the songwriting that holds it up and that was done years ago.
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Old 2009.12.18, 01:14 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by HEDOfloe View Post
lazer, i agree, i want her to be writing from the heart, too, but i don't think that happened too much in SG. Bonsai hada is the only song that really stands out to me in that sense, it seems really inspired. while i like some of the other songs, they seem to be made just for the fun of making a song, which there is no problem with that, but they feel almost like knock-offs to me
If there's any Sanmon Gossip song that sounds like a knock-off (That isn't Futabocchi) it's Bonsai Hada. Whenever I listen to it I think that my three minutes or whatever is better spent listening to Toki ga Bousou or Nihon ni Umarete. Re: Ryuukou, the fact that she contacted Mummy D in a hurry to ask him to lend his talents to Ryuukou may at least suggest that she was 'passionate' about creating the song. That's more evidence to say that she was passionate than she wasn't.

Stop saying things like 'SR should write from the heart' because it doesn't mean anything. If I wanted to play that game, I could say that Roudousha, zero miten chara, and a handful of other songs on SG sound like they're 'from the heart'.

As I've recently looked into, Shiina Ringo has been doing 'collabs' for her entire career. That's her thing -- Sanmon Gossip is just a bit more explicit with it. And she's been doing 'gimmicky' stuff like that forever, (See Utaite Myouri) so is Variety really that out of character as some of you think it is? And even if Variety tarnished her name, why should Shiina (Or anyone) give a shit about her 'artistic integrity?' She's just one person creating her music because that's her passion.

People like to project all kinds of nonsense onto Ringo and pass it off as gospel. And what I don't get is that for all the people who loved Adult and are getting depressed over Ringo for Variety, it's just ONE album.

zero miten kara and Togatta Teguchi made me wish there were more songs like them on Sanmon Gossip (the former is KSK-caliber, IMHO) but at least, it makes me feel better that those were Ringo arrangements so we'll see songs of that style in the future, maybe. Y'know, I wouldn't have minded Mummy D doing a whole album with Ringo, with Nobuhiko and Inoue. Tokyo Outkast
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Old 2009.12.18, 07:53 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Scribble R View Post
If there's any Sanmon Gossip song that sounds like a knock-off (That isn't Futabocchi) it's Bonsai Hada. Whenever I listen to it I think that my three minutes or whatever is better spent listening to Toki ga Bousou or Nihon ni Umarete. Re: Ryuukou, the fact that she contacted Mummy D in a hurry to ask him to lend his talents to Ryuukou may at least suggest that she was 'passionate' about creating the song. That's more evidence to say that she was passionate than she wasn't.

Stop saying things like 'SR should write from the heart' because it doesn't mean anything. If I wanted to play that game, I could say that Roudousha, zero miten chara, and a handful of other songs on SG sound like they're 'from the heart'.
wow, that's surprising. can you say a little more about why you think Bonsai Hada would be a knock-off song? the only thing i gather from what you said is that she's done similar songs in the past that are better. i think it's a very passionate song; the way she delivers it really gives off a feeling that she wants you to feel how she felt.

about ryuukou, i didn't mean to say that she wasn't passionate about making the song, i think she was passionate about the whole album, it seemed to me she really wanted to try all these different things. what i meant was that i think that the source of inspiration for the songs was probably different this time around. whereas before it seemed like she'd had some problem and she resorted to writing a song about it, now it seems she said to herself, hey i want to write something like this and she did it. the difference being that the second one would probably lack some of the emotion the first would have because the initial motivation was just to try a different style of music. again, that's not to say that she's heartless or doesn't give a shit anymore, but i think that might be at least part of the reason why the music hardly compares with what she used to do when she was going through different kinds of hardships.
basically: artists need pain to make great work.
and if she's had enough fuel and hasn't delivered in the same way, then i can't explain it because i don't know her. but from what i can judge on the outside, she seems very content and complacent at where she is and keeping the band as friends and all these things that will lead to OK music (by her standards).
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