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Old 2016.01.15, 04:36 PM   #11
zeroryouko
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It might go a little something like this...

26 Genre Song
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There are 2 kinds of J-Pop: Shiina Ringo, and everyone else.
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Old 2016.01.15, 06:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by zeroryouko View Post
LOL

So, I had deliberately avoided posting my own thoughts about that chart to see what everybody else thought, but basically, I think that the theory as presented is BS. (Except for the part about Ringo being a genius, that part is fine.) When it comes to the act itself, size does not matter - the whole is generally equal to the average of the parts.

But if the theory were modified to reflect the number of people with creative control over the song writing/composition/arrangement, instead of the number of individuals in the band, I think it holds a bit more water. Sure, individuals may be good or bad, but when was the last time a song written under the influence of a committee/corporation/record label had the same power as a more personal artistic creation?
There's a more interesting argument in there and I'm inclined to agree that a record with one person's artistic vision generally outdoes corporate committee thinking or whatever but the whole premise is still flawed as hell and the graph has absolutely no merit to it at all short of reminding us that Shiina Ringo is, in fact, a genius. Also putting Nobuo Uematsu and Utada Hikaru next to each other reveals so much about whoever made that graph that I basically dismissed it out of hand as soon as I saw it. (As a side note, remember when Pharrell produced an Utada Hikaru song for Rush Hour 2?)

Also genius doesn't necessarily translate to sales figures or respect garnered abroad, being a "performer" does not have more objective value to it than being a dancer, being a "genius" doesn't necessarily mean you make better music, the selection of artists is a random group of cherrypicked japanese artists that vaguely fit the opinion of the person who made the graph - it's not random, it's not based on sales, chart success, genre, critical acclaim, or anything. It's just "here's 48 bands i know". The sample size is also way too small and the "100 american music majors" thing is a flat out lie but you all already knew that.

But even if we completely ignore the graph and look only at the central idea that there's a correlation between the number of people with creative control and the quality of the final project, it's still a shaky premise at best. There's plenty of artists who are at their best as part of a collaborative effort, and lots of great bands that were a strictly diplomatic/teamwork-oriented affair. I mean, I'm not personally a Beatles fan but I can't in good consciousness sweep Lennon–McCartney under the rug. Then there's the whole improvisation thing...

Plus, so much goes into creating an album that the lines of what constitutes "creative control" are super blurry. Using Ringo as an example, while I don't doubt that those solo albums are "hers", and her writing is likely the strongest influence on the final product, those albums would not sound exactly the same in a world without the several dozen names in the liner notes of each album. That applies to KZK in the same way it applies to Bitches Brew, Off The Wall, Born In The USA, Sign O' The Times, Ziggy Stardust, and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. All of these albums are "solo" records, but none of them were created in the vacuum of one person. It's all informed by too much. I don't really think it bears thinking about. Sorry for the rambling reply btw, I'm drunk.

Originally Posted by deadgrandma View Post
But has anyone heard all of METAFIVE yet?
I don't even like any of the singles but they're all geniuses so they get to be genius tier. I mean if X Japan and L'Arc En Ciel get to be alongside Ringo...
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Old 2016.01.16, 10:24 AM   #13
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Babymetal is ridiculed overseas? Not from what I've noticed. People love that crap.

It's hard to say Boris would fit in on a chart about Japanese music when they fit more into the ideals of Western music. They're more loved overseas and have pointed out how they never fit in musically in the Japanese world.

Have no idea who Masashi Sada is, but I guess I should find out seeing as he's at the very top of "genius".
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Old 2016.01.16, 11:54 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by K__ View Post
But even if we completely ignore the graph and look only at the central idea that there's a correlation between the number of people with creative control and the quality of the final project, it's still a shaky premise at best. There's plenty of artists who are at their best as part of a collaborative effort, and lots of great bands that were a strictly diplomatic/teamwork-oriented affair. I mean, I'm not personally a Beatles fan but I can't in good consciousness sweep Lennon–McCartney under the rug. Then there's the whole improvisation thing...
I'm glad you mentioned Lennon/McCartney, because literally my very second reaction when seeing that chart, after noticing Ringo, was "So, what about the Beatles then?" And I thought about that some more as I was writing my earlier reply.

The conclusion that I came to is, firstly, that the existence of a correlation does not imply that the correlation is 1:1. The Lennon/McCartney duo is not a perfect fit, but they still lie much closer to the solo end of the spectrum. Had they diluted their influence, perhaps the Beatles wouldn't have garnered the respect that they did.

Secondly, collaborative efforts often can be amazing, but the key to any good collaboration is that the collaborating parties must each bring something unique to the partnership. Otherwise it's just delegation. Very often this comes in the form of different individuals writing lyrics and composing music (Lennon/McCartney being a notable exception, at least early on). But I think it's important to make the distinction between true collaboration, where all parties add something that the others do not have, and committee thinking, which tends toward the repression of individuals' unique strengths.

Originally Posted by K__ View Post
Plus, so much goes into creating an album that the lines of what constitutes "creative control" are super blurry. Using Ringo as an example, while I don't doubt that those solo albums are "hers", and her writing is likely the strongest influence on the final product, those albums would not sound exactly the same in a world without the several dozen names in the liner notes of each album. That applies to KZK in the same way it applies to Bitches Brew, Off The Wall, Born In The USA, Sign O' The Times, Ziggy Stardust, and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. All of these albums are "solo" records, but none of them were created in the vacuum of one person.
True...but the amount of control ceded to those dozens of other individuals varies quite a bit, and I would argue that the more control they have, the more the composition/songwriting/performance is diluted, to the point of blandness. In fact, this is pretty much my exact objection to auto-tune.

As for Ringo - she fits the theory almost perfectly:
  • EMI tells Ringo "We won't release Kabukichou no Joou, people can't handle it. We'll release Koufukuron instead." Ringo says "No, that version of Koufukuron is just a generic demo tape." They release it anyway, and it flops.
  • After wresting creative control away from her label, Ringo locks herself away for a couple of years, and begins to write, and arrange, and record, using her own equipment, in her own home, with no one looking over her shoulder. KSK is the result.
  • Ringo forms Tokyo Jihen. For the first couple of years, she retains the bulk of the creative control, but the influence of the other band members becomes more apparent. Early TJ is great, but they never quite hit the level that Ringo did on her own.
  • Ringo passes the majority of TJ's musical composition duties off to the other band members, beginning with the release of Variety. TJ is still good, but definitely not what they were (or what Ringo was).
  • In the midst of this, Ringo releases another solo album, Sanmon Gossip. It is, once again, excellent.
  • Ringo writes songs to spec for NHK and for Coca-Cola. The results are proclaimed crappy by all.
  • Just speculation, but: Capitalizing on the popularity of one of the aforementioned songs, Ringo's label pressures her to put out another album ASAP. She doesn't have enough new material ready to go, but the label insists, so she cobbles something together from previously-released singles, the few new songs she has, and an early demo tape that had never made it. Hi Izuru Tokoro is the result, and while most of the songs are individually quite good, the overall album seems lackluster.
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Last edited by zeroryouko : 2016.01.16 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 2016.01.25, 07:47 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by deadgrandma View Post
But has anyone heard all of METAFIVE yet?

Also.... one day I wanna hear a group with as many members as AKB48 that are all singer songwriters put out a single...

MASS FUCKING CHAOS!
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Probably the closest thing
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Old 2016.01.25, 09:13 PM   #16
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Kidney Now
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