2011-2012 Jihen Releases & Tour Discussion

[TurtleFu]

Yeeaaah, no.
Ringo probably has more female fans because she is a female songwriter who sings truthfully, etc. If guys like male artists because they're 'cool' and provide a form of identification, then it's the same for women.
The other thing is that Ringo has never been presented the same way pop idols usually were (ie objectified), so maybe she's seen as a empowering.

[thespidereggs]

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

The other thing is that Ringo has never been presented the same way pop idols usually were (ie objectified), so maybe she's seen as a empowering.

By that token, how many gay fans does Ringo have?

[TurtleFu]

It's really hard to tell. The gay scene in Japan is extremely underground. It's even worse there than in America and some of Europe. Despite the manga fascination with "Boy's Love", they like to pretend that real gay people don't actually exist: gay people are as fictional as Naruto's ninjas.

[thespidereggs]

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

It's really hard to tell. The gay scene in Japan is extremely underground. It's even worse there than in America and some of Europe. Despite the manga fascination with "Boy's Love", they like to pretend that real gay people don't actually exist: gay people are as fictional as Naruto's ninjas.

Yeah, that's what I hear about East Asia in general. It's just so bizarre between the conservative social attitudes and the rabid fandom over yaoi/shounen-ai. I still hear it's better, relatively speaking, than in other Asian countries. Shiina certainly seems like good fodder for the gays though, what with her "girl power!" aesthetic.

[kuro_neko]

Originally Posted by TurtleFu

It's really hard to tell. The gay scene in Japan is extremely underground. It's even worse there than in America and some of Europe. Despite the manga fascination with "Boy's Love", they like to pretend that real gay people don't actually exist: gay people are as fictional as Naruto's ninjas.

I find this post incredibly pretentious.

As for someone who lived in Japan for over three years and was engaged in long term relationships with japanese men, I can say *with due experience*, that gay culture in japan does actually exist, albeit you need to be in the know and included in that circle (just like anything else in japan). Nevermind gay culture, Japanese culture as a whole tends to be as much about what isn't said as it about what's observed. I.E. rather than tell you your japanese suck, people well compliment your japanese. Once you can actually speak semi-fluently people will stop talking about it...the same goes with gay culture...with the exception of pride parades, gay culture in japan is naturally adapted to the japanese lifestyle, so while in America we think of gay culture as being loud and proud, it couldn't be more different in Japan. If you know where to look it isn't hard to find...heck, take a stroll down to ni-chome in shinjuku and it isn't exactly hard to see once you are inside the protected bubble. modern gay culture in japan does exist, but just as japanese culture has the somewhat unfortunate stereotype of excluding foreigners, so doesn't gay japanese culture. Since japanese culture isn't american culture, you can't by definition compare gay culture in Japan to gay culture in the US or even Europe...it's a bit of an oversight.

that being said I've met plenty of gay Ringo fans at Jihen shows and despite what previous posts have said about there being many female Ringo fans, almost every Jihen/Ringo show I've been to actually had MORE male fans than female. just saying.

[TurtleFu]

Where did I say that gay culture doesn't in exist in Japan? That's right, I DIDN'T. Where did I say that gay culture is supposed to be "loud and proud"? You are making a lot of assumptions about what I said. What I DID say was that it was underground, which is pretty much what YOU said too (only you said you needed to be "in the know" and "included in that circle").
And my experiences are with a good friend of mine, a girl from Tokyo who is lesbian, and what she has told of me about her experiences, ie Japanese people pretend that gay people don't actually exist (her own family, for one), gay culture is underground, etc.
She says she would get hit on by guys and she would tell them she wasn't interested, and they would just be completely incredulous and struck by disbelief. Like "lesbians!? Those actually exist?!" disbelief.
Furthermore, I didn't say that gay culture was somehow American or needed to follow the "American" model. You are assuming I have stereotypes of gay culture that I don't actually have.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because you have 1st hand experience and I only have 2nd hand, but you make a lot of assumptions about me that I don't appreciate. YOU'RE being the presumptuous one, not me.

[kuro_neko]

"gay people are as fictional as Naruto's ninjas"

"It's even worse there than in America and some of Europe." - your directly making the comparison here between gay culture in western countries and asia. what makes it worse here? lack of visibility? people denying it exists? why would that be...hmm...maybe its because gays in the West have an entire movement of being out and proud?

making assumptions based on a few limited experiences (and from a friend no less) IS being pretentious, it's assuming to understand a culture and subculture you yourself have no direct experience with first hand.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just tired of people making comments and statements on this forum without some experience to back it up. if someone asks about gay ringo fans in japan, don't talk about it if you don't know, if you're just assuming, that's all.

okay sorry to hijack the thread, back to reality.

[deadgrandma]

Oh my

[Tokyo Jihad]

Originally Posted by kuro_neko

I'm just tired of people making comments and statements on this forum without some experience to back it up.

[thespidereggs]

Originally Posted by kuro_neko

making assumptions based on a few limited experiences (and from a friend no less) IS being pretentious, it's assuming to understand a culture and subculture you yourself have no direct experience with first hand.

I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just tired of people making comments and statements on this forum without some experience to back it up. if someone asks about gay ringo fans in japan, don't talk about it if you don't know, if you're just assuming, that's all.

Not to fan said flames, but aren't you kind of overreacting? TurtleFu didn't mean to make any pretentious remarks, nor did he claim to be some omniscient source on Japanese gay culture; how often do people express knowledge or opinions about things they've never experienced firsthand? I've never been to Japan, nonetheless experienced gay culture in Japan, so does that rule me out of the discussion? I could argue that there are likely certain facets of gay culture that you haven't experienced, but I wouldn't claim you were being "pretentious" for generalizing as such.

Just... play nice, is all I'm saying!

Back on topic, how long typically is the wait between a TJ tour and its DVD release? I want to see this show.