Are we non-Japanese speakers missing out on the Ringo experience?

[Scribble R]

Well, a major part of the Ringo experience. Someone said to me that they don't know how I can love Shiina Ringo if I don't know what she's saying. I replied with, "the same way people can enjoy classical music" -- in that the vocals are just another instrument.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuut, it's got me thinking. I don't particularly care about the lyrics, how 'deep' they are/their message, etc. but in many songs, the combination of words (wordplay) can actually enhance the music. And since I keep hearing that Shiina Ringo was controversial partly due to her 'ancient lyrics' and wordplay or whatever. Plus it's harder to sing along when you're singing gibberish in between the one or two words of Japanese you DO know. Watashi no namae woooshireeneee azoookaaaynee deshou?

So all you fans who can understand Japanese, am I (are we) missing out?

[Osiris12345]

I'm in the same boat as you. My knowledge of the Japanese language is slightly better than my knowledge of advanced astrophysics. So when Ringo sings in Japanese, I have no idea what she's saying until I look up frecklegirl's translation.

I thank frecklegirl for actually giving us non-Japanese speakers the same experience so that we can understand what the songs are about. She provides a lot of the enjoyment for me because, as much as I love the melodies of Ringo's songs, her lyrics are something I want to experience too. I always want to know what she's singing about.

So am I missing something if I'm reading a translation? Probably. It's impossible to do a 100% accurate translation so of course the people who understand Japanese are going to have a fuller experience. But as far as the music goes, we can all enjoy that equally. You don't have to be Japanese to know that Ringo's melodica playing in Kurumaya-san was awesome or that Honnou has a great melody.

So I really couldn't say. I'm actually curious about what frecklegirl has to say about this.

[merman]

Yeaaaaaaaah :\
I mean I'm far from fluent, even far from advanced, who knows if my skills are even intermediate but it already adds a whole new level of awesome to her music. There's much that's kinda untranslatable without losing the "kick", and while frecklegirl's translations are probably as good as it gets, it's much better when you actually understand (I have a long way in that department too), but then that's like that with any language.
I love her wordplays I had no idea about before, like when she writes a homonym with a different kanji, and the two meanings are basically the same with a different "shade"... if you get what I mean that's one of the things that would more often than not get lost in translation. (like saying something's "good" and "right", that kind of stuff)

EDIT: Osiris, you're right in that, as long as you enjoy the music, that's the most important thing. And we should all prop frecklegirl for providing us

[kuro_neko]

meh, I was rocking out to MM and SS long before I ever had my first real class in Japanese or set foot in Japan. I find some of the earlier songs have that raw musical appeal that I can remember responding to upon listens now. It is like when you add the lyrics it is another layer of complexity and sometimes you just want to immediately connect to the music, it can be a burden, getting in the way. People who don't speak a WORD of japanese can enjoy the music all just the same, but I think there is a real potency and message in her work that is worth the time and effort to find translations or translate yourself. It isn't necessary to speak japanese or understand to be a ringo fan, but if you want to get into her music in a deeper sense and not just rock out, I think every fan should make it a point to try and understand her music as much as possible.

that being said, I'm far from fluent and there are a few of her songs where I've never read translations and never bothered looking them up so I only have a very vague idea what is going on. It has never bothered me. Ringo is one of the only Japanese artists I listen to where there isn't almost immediate recognition with some of the lyrics, which is really rare. Her lyrics are intense and I think even native Japanese speakers stumble over them. All the more reason to seek out good translators and their translations.

[merman]

I've read that even some native Japanese speakers have trouble with KSK lyrics because of all the ancient Japanese contained therein, is that true? I can tell that she uses some obsolete grammatical forms here and there, but not more. But taking Okonomi de or Meisai for example, I understand nearly nothing in those songs, so I still enjoy them more simply for the music.

[Glathannus]

I'm not "missing out" on Shiina Ringo's lyrical meaning and the way that lines up with the melody, anymore than I'm "missing out" on the lyrical meaning and timing of English vocals (my native language). Lyrics simply go through one of my ears and out the other, unless they are all that the so-called 'music' has going for it. The more structure the music has, or the deeper the melodic grooves there are, the less attention I pay to the lyrics of any language.

The only way I care about the lyrics, is with their.. phonetic flow. The Japanese language has some very nice phonetic potential. It actually bothers me sometimes when Shiina Ringo tries to sing in English, because it doesn't flow as well as it would from a native English speaker, plus the native Japanese vocals flow better (in my opinion) than native English vocals. I like the Casshern version of Kuki better than the KSK CD version not because it's English, but because I like the tone better during the final minute. The English lyrics still go through one of my ears and out the other. Vocal tone and texture have always been more important to me than a lingual definition. If 'music' has groundbreaking poetry, big fucking deal. Do I need to understand what Alanis Morissette is saying, in order to enjoy her bitchy attitude and the way the "other instruments" (the voice is just an instrument) go along with her voice?

You know, I've never taken an in-depth look at frecklegirl's site. It isn't that I don't take her seriously as a translator, but that I've just.. never cared what the lyrics were or what they meant. Maybe one day I'll go there for Romaji if I want to sing along, except I'm anything but tonedeaf, which makes me all-too-conscientious about how much my vocals fall short of Shiina Ringo's. I'd rather just keep my mouth shut, than make noise I'd be less interested in hearing than 64kbps MP3s.

[justriiingo]

"ancient lyrics" refer to the use of archaic kanji characters that are not in common use in the Japanese language. I actually like that she uses the kanji so much because it's easy for Chinese-speakers (like me) to understand her lyrics w/o knowing the Japanese language.

[Nimh]

Music is its own language. Lyrics are just one part of it.

If Ringo were a novelist I'd say yeah, you're missing out, even when reading a translation. But music? Rhythmic sounds get emotions across even if you don't understand the words.

[frecklegirl]

"Ancient lyrics" also refers to using old hiragana in some words. Like 歌ひ手冥利 Utaite Myouri--see how Utaite is written? 歌ひ手? It's actually UtaHIte. That's because the hiragana ひ (hi) used to be used where nowadays the character い (i) is used. Ringo wrote it in that old way cause she really likes all those old ways of writing. But, when you pronounce it out loud, you'd still say "UtaIte Myouri."

She did the same thing for the KSK lyrics. All of them are written in that old style, with 'hi' for 'i' and so on. However, she sings them with a modern pronunciation, which is why the romaji reflect that as well.

Also, let's not give me too much credit here, guys. The Ringo section hosts a lot of translations by other people, in addition to the ones I've made myself!

Actually, I think one of my projects for the future is to go through and make my own translation from scratch for all her songs, and as I'm doing that examine the lyrics for patterns and stylistic nuances. She likes to use certain words a lot--"azayaka" is one that I've caught reappearing in like 6-7 songs so far--and it'd be cool to catch all those lyrical patterns and document them. Plus, I'm not sure if the translations I have on there, especially those done by other people, but also mine, are as perfect as they can be, so I want to redo them.

So, thanks for all the compliments, but don't give me too much credit! I'm not saying you can't rely on my site or anything, just that it isn't quite perfect yet!

As an answer to this question, yes, I do think you miss out on a lot not being able to understand Japanese. Ringo's wordplay and lyrics are, to me, at least half of the experience. I really do think you miss out on A LOT if you're not taking those into consideration. People like Jihad like to argue that it's enough just to listen to the music, you don't have to understand as well, and while I wish that were true, I don't think it is. You're just not getting a full experience if you don't get everything she does. And even I can't get that full experience because I'm not a native speaker; I'm sure there are details that fly right over my head.

That's not to say that it's pointless to listen to her if you're not a native Japanese speaker; I'm just saying that her wordplay and lyrics are a BIG part of her and it's bad to just overlook that because you can't understand it immediately when listening. If you're not paying attention to the lyrics, you're missing out!

[mizer_unmei]

I've had 3 and a half years of Japanese at university and I still can't fully understand the intricacies of her lyrics. But from what I do get I understand she's genius. Finally understanding the gist of "Tadashii Machi" and it's message of homesickness (the whole "the smell of winter in the city isn't right, and it doesn't have the momochi beach or you or muromi river" especially.) struck a chord with me and really gave me chills. That mixed with the way she sings it made me love it so much more. I think, especially with an artist like Shiina Ringo, if you don't have the lyrics you only have half a song. It's the same with The Smiths -- Morrissey's lyrics are worthy enough for being a fan because those are the parts that make you think and can change your life.

I'm always sad that I don't think I can ever fully appreciate the play on words and poetry found beautiful in another language. I've been studying Latin for as long as I have Japanese and my favorite part of that is its poetry. I love Ovid for his wit and his funny situations. but there is a whole other level that a native speaker would be able to understand beyond the humor and cultural references -- it's the parts that are filled with the writer's wonderful command of the language. And I know I miss out on a lot of stuff in my own language, let alone a foreign one.

Yes, it's important to appreciate a song for it's musical qualities. I couldn't not do that seeing as how I own CDs from a cluster of 15 different languages. When you get artists like Duran Duran and R.E.M who have stated they wrote nonesense lyrics it's less important, but especially in cases like Ringo, the lyrics are an entity to be tackled on their own.